Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

Okay, this is a sub-subject off of another poll, but I was wondering what the feeling is on having a dog run and tree a coon by itself prior to earning a Nt Champion degree. This could be accomplished by a MOH or "Certifications Judge"

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Joe Newlin
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

Heck, I've finished a few dogs to NtCh and they could all run and tree their own coon. Matter of fact, each and every one of them got at least one win because at some point they had a coon to themself in competition.

I'm sure because it is possible for a dog to make NtCh without being able to tree its own coon, that it is sometimes happens. Its the exception, not the rule.

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Registered: Jun 2003
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Posts: 319

At LEAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been of the opinion that MORE strenious measures should be taken. Too many "hitch hikers" making this degree. From looking at the poll there must be at least 25% like that.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Advance, MO
Posts: 77

I agree with you John. I don't think it happens very often that a dog that can't tree a coon wins at least 3 casts with plus points one of which has to be a first place. Sure it can happen, and probably has before a few times, but not a bunch of times.

I've heard people say that crap about a bunch of dogs before that I knew for a fact could tree coons. What happens is they hunt with the dog one or two times, and the dog doesn't look good. Then they assume that they have seen enough to say that the dog can't tree a coon. The best dog in the world might look like a pile of what comes out of his backside on any given night.

That being said I don't think this would be a terrible idea in theory, but how are you gonna do it? Are you gonna expect people to volunteer to judge these things, or are you gonna pay them? If you pay them then I guess you have to charge the individual who wants to "certify" their hound, and it would take a decent price to cover the judges gas, to pay UKC (who would certainly expect their cut), and to pay the judge fairly for their time. If you ask me this would be a lot more troube then it would be worth for the few instances that a dog who actually can't tree a coon earns a NITECH degree.

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You would have the same problem as you do now except they wouldnt only be saying it cant tree a coon they would also say you paid off the judge.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 184

Really good idea best one I have herd in awile.Way to many counterfits makeing tha tittle they DO NOT deserve.
Would not bother me any if it were reqired that all dogs must run and tree in front of master of hounds or certified UKC rep before they even inter a Nite Hunt it make me sick when we cut loose and someones hound cames back to our feet.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 2147

I think it says somewhere in the rulebook that rules apply and champion points awarded when casting dogs into the woods, it doesn't mention turning one dog loose to see if it can tree by itself. Dogs are naturally a pack animal. But you have the right to take it to your breed committee to take it to the ukc rule committee.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Adairsville, GA
Posts: 269

I do think a certification process or something of this nature needs to be in place. I have hunted with nite ch hounds before that couldn't do it. I once drove half way to Canada and got a male dog to try out that had 2 wins toward Grand. He is one of yalls exceptions you were talking about. I hunted him 12 out of the 14 nights he ate my feed and not once did he tree by himself or get strike on a dog. When hunted by himself, hell he wouldn't even get out of sight! You would try to get on him a little to make him go and he'd crawl under the truck. He didn't deserve the wins he had on him, he deserved a sentencing to become fertilizer. This is just one instance out of many that I and probably alot of other folks have seen if they would be honest.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

quote:

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Originally posted by Joey
You would have the same problem as you do now except they wouldnt only be saying it cant tree a coon they would also say you paid off the judge.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: mo
Posts: 12

Heck, I'd go farther. All registered dogs should have to demonstrate an ability to tree their own by three years of age or have their papers pulled. This would clean up the counterfits in a short period of time, and get back to a litter making coondogs--instead of only 10 0r 20% turning out.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

I'd just as soon see the current title requirements left alone.

But, I believe there would be interest in some type of objective performance evaluation system. Not only can you verify that the dog can tree its own coon, but you can also rate a whole bunch of things, like hunt, tracking ability, locating, accuracy, disposition, treeing, straightness, length of ears(oops), conformation, etc. For those interested in breeding better coondogs, I think this might be a more useful tool than titles. The ideal dog would have the titles AND a high performance rating.

The nice thing about a performance rating is it breaks down all the aspects of a coondog. When a dog gets a title, we pretty much know it trees coons and thats about it. Wouldn't it be nice to see a piece of paper that accurately reflects almost everything there is to know about a hound?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Whiteville. N.C.
Posts: 203

John D.
I like your idea, Something like this would be great for stud dog owners that wanted to enter there dog into this program on a voluntarily basis.

As far as certifing a Nt.Ch. I don't see anything wrong with it but it would sure be hard to find enough people to look at all of the new NT.Ch. every month. Someone would be really busy. And trying to find that many honest and impartial people might be harder to do.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Washington, NC
Posts: 3314

John D
I also like your idea. Was this not kicked around by UKC a while back?
As far as dogs not being capible of treeing coons by themselves, I knew of only one nt ch who couldn't. A friend bought him and found that he never opened on track, didn't help trail, but would be second or third tree all the time. He took the dog back, a short time later, the dog was a gr nt ch. I beleive that 90-95% of nt ch can do the job, just some are much better than others.
I once knew a dog that in three nights of hunting with him I never saw him do very good. This dog was owned by a good hunter and many people hunted with him a sang his praises. I know he was a good hound, I just saw him on bad nights.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Canton, Georgia
Posts: 1630

no matter what you do you'll never make everyone happy. i wonder how many casts have been won by the people unhappy with the system now. sounds like a few have been beat by dogs they didn't think deserved it.


jeff w.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

Thanks, but the idea of performance rating has been batted around for awhile. I first read of something about it from John Wick's Walk with Wick book. I think Todd K was even asking for input on this on here some time back.

There would be some hurdles to overcome. Like finding suitable inspectors. They won't be and shouldn't be cheap. Would a stud owner pay $200-$500 to get his hound rated? How many would pay $25 to see the rating on a potential sire or dam of a litter? In my mind it would be cheap if it was reliable info. but coonhunters are notorious tightwads.

Then, in the end, its like Sheriff Andy says, nothing will ever make everyone happy. There will always be someone that will pooh-pooh any method to measure a hound that doesn't use their own personal standards(I use that term loosely), to measure a coonhound.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minden Louisiana
Posts: 147

Just a thought so dont kill me. if you want to add to the lagitamacy of the title I have a thought.

change rule a litte by
Dog must have won 5 nite ch hunts under at least 3 diffrent judges. that may help a little.

what do you think....

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: east tenn.
Posts: 18

IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO THAT WHY NOT JUST DO AWAY WITH HUNTS ALL TOGETHER AND JUST GET A NON-HUNTING JUDGE APPROVED BY UKC TO GO OUT AND HUNT WITH THE DOG ON THREE DIFFERENT HUNTS AND GIVE HIM A TITLE "COONDOG" AND BE DONE WITH IT. IVE HUNTED ALL MY LIFE IVE NEVER HUNTED WITH A DOG THAT MADE NITE CH. THAT COULDN'T TREE A COON. LETS GET REALISTIC ABOUT WHAT WERE TALKING ABOUT HERE MABEY YOU HUNT WITH A DOG ONE TIME AND IT STUNK IT UP HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE WENT TO WORK AND JUST COULDN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT WERE TALKING ABOUT AN DOG AND WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SMARTER THAN THEY ARE AREN'T WE. SO LET'S JUST NOT WORRY TO MUCH ABOUT WHAT OTHER HOUNDS ARE DOING LET'S WORRY ABOUT OUR OWN.........

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

Just this past friday night, I hunted with a female that had two wins, and placed second on Friday. That finished her out. She is now a nite champion.

After the hunt, the man told me that she could not or would not go hunting by herself. He told me that was the "only hole in her that he could find"!

Call it sour grapes, call it being a whiner, call it whatever you want, but the little dog hitch hiked all night long, she never took any risk, never took any minus (also had every first strike at 61 seconds after we cut em) and never shut up.

I don't think that this kind of dog is the "rule", but rather the exception. Most of the dogs that earn a degree deserve it, that is why I asked the question.

How many times does a counterfit have to show up to lessen the value of the real thing??????????

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Joe Newlin
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Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

btt

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Joe Newlin
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1170

Just like humans, dogs have off times and are not machines. Even the best athelete has days he is just not up to par. There are so many different factors that need to be considered before you decide if a dog is junk or not. How far did he travel? Is the altitude/humitidy/temperature/terrain different? Is the water different? What is the dog used to? I know it has taken me a while to understand this. My Nt Ch dog looked like an idiot the entire week before Oaks. He traveled from the coast fo NC to VA then MI, OH, and then to IN hunting in each place. I was so disgusted with him, I would not even go out with him on Thursday. I let a kid hunt him to have a dog to handle. Then on Friday night he wouldnt even leave my feet for the first dump. I was frustrated and embarrassed, would have loved to put a boot in his rear. Then on the second dump he found his mind and acted like a hound. He just got better from there on out, winning his cast. Just goes to show you a dog can have a bad day, or several bad days and still be a coondog. Bring the same dog home to the swamps and he looks totally different. I just think you should check out the variables before you decide if a dog is a no treeing me too dog or a real coondog.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Bolivia,NC
Posts: 605

Long ears......I bet you were walking behind everybody putting your foot up his rear so nobody could see ya,,,,then when you got him out the second drop you got him by his ear at the exit of his box, and had a heart to heart with him huh??????

How'd NC Hunt go this weekend????????TCB

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