Registered: May 2006
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1344

Todd's question about the % of registered big game dogs made me start thinking. Does the breed association make the requirements for the single registering?

I have a male walker that I have the grandparents UKC #'s on one side and was hoping to eventually get him single registered. The dam's papers were never sent in and eventually lost after changing owners a few times. Anyway, the be single registered my dog must trial and tree a coon and stayed treed for 5 minutes. Sounds easy right?

I have a dog that will be 3 next year who has seen MAYBE a dozen coon her whole life. Can she catch one by herself?? Maybe if I could find an area to hunt one.

Point is, they are big game dogs, can they be tested on big game. I feel much better on turning my dogs out on a bobcat track then I do a coon. My dogs wouldn't know what to do if "dropped" I believe that is the right term. They have been walk hunted and can "free" cast, but won't go and stray too far from me until they hit a track.

They won't be PR bred just because of lost papers and so forth, but heck I wouldn't mind getting them single registered for their pups and grandpups to come.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 93

lmao , i feel you catlady , i am from washington state , moved to this hole here in arkansas 4 years ago and the only thing i had ever casted before was my fishing pole . i laughed at the ways some of these folks hunt , as you said "drop" there dogs , or casting them , the only term i knew about that i used to do was road hunt , these folks never heard of boxing or rigging a dog to find a coon . it is a whole new world i am tellin ya . i dont like the casting personaly especialy while trying to train a young dog , i want scent under there noses everytime i cut them loose. now i know there is some differances to that because you get a dog that can wind strike a coon , cat , bear , cougar up to and sometimes over a 100 yards from the road there is not going to be any scent under there noses right from the start , but with saying that , that dog that wind struck that track , you allow them to start it then tailgate once they have the track up and going then that pup or younger inexperianced dog gets the hang of it pretty quick if they are going to make it at all . not saying that casting is not effective , i just personaly do not like it , it allows to much time for screwin off unless you hunt just one dog and i hate to hunt just one the more noise the better i enjoy listoning to a good cold trail , then here it switch to a jump track , then switch it off and locate the tree... happy hunting...

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: north central arkansas
Posts: 39

come on now cougar Arkansas is gods country. that is unless you live in the flatlands. Are hogs big game? I think so. I usually don't "cast" my dogs. i get in there with them. they'll do you a better job if they know you are right on their heels. I like a good mixture of dogs in my pack. from short to long range, and dogs that aren't afraid of briar patches. I like to leave no stone unturned. i don't want to have to beat the bushes for them. they need to be out hunting not under my feet. I start most all of my young dogs on coon. if i can get them going hunting, checking dogs, treeing a little (or a lot), and making the furr fly on a coon then hogs usually can come pretty easy If you have bred the right kind of dog. Most all good big game hounds can (or could have) made a pretty good coon hound. Very few good "coon hounds" can cut it in the big game world.

there isn't anyone in our part of the world with any cat dogs. I think that is something i'd like to try that no one around here does. (bobcats that is)

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 93

well hawg you guessed it , i live in the flat lands and it smokes biscuits , as far as hawgs , i have never tried , but always thought it might be alot like bear hunting but at a much slower pace , seems how they are direct cousins along with the coon , but as far as your thinking about good coon hounds making bear dogs , i owned several , matter of fact the dogs i owned back home ran all 4, coon , bobcat , cougar and bear , the reason i allowed that is simple , they have seasons for these animals unlike here where it is open all year round for coon . i refused to tie my bear dogs up to go cat hunting , or vise versa , if i was gonna feed them they were gonna hunt the entire season which consisted of all 4 animals one closing as another would start and of course rifle seasons for deer and elk , no dogs allowed in the woods at that point in time . matter of fact i owned a fenominal cat and coon dog that would not run a bear period , but , he would strike them and get the pack going in the rite direction then quit and come back , which was fine by me , i realy was not wanting him to get torn up and get a hefty vet bill . but each to his own... happy hunting

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 4312

UKC needs a totally different policy for single reg.big game hounds.Not sure how this would work but off the top of my head.... say a sworn aviadavid(sp) by say at least 3 people that the dog in question can and does run and tree its respected big game.Granted there would be some that would get false statements,but howmany Reg.Coonhounds are running around out there with false papers?

Last edited by KBallema on 08-25-2010 at 06:32 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 6113

I'd be interested in looking at something that made more sense along these lines also.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: WV
Posts: 21

I'm sure UKC could come up with some way of grading performance for a Big Game Hound. Granted it would take alot of time for UKC and all persons involved with grading the dog.

Some questions/things UKC should consider:

What animals will classify as Big game?

Does the dog posess striking ability, trailing ability, and treeing/baying ability?

If the dog does posesss the above 3, does the dog have the determination to stay with caught game whether treed or bayed?

Tested dogs should be able to run in packs with atleast 6 to 8 dogs.

If tested dog does pass the evaluation, the papers should be identified as such (i.e. Big Game Plott, Walker, Redbone, etc.)

This is a little off topic but,

I would like to see where Breeders would have the opportunity to put on the pup papers the preferred game of the dogs being bred. (i.e Coon, Bear, Cat, etc.)

Mike

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 93

well i know several guys back home have the papers of the roots that they started with , but had never papered the offspring of other said dogs , which made them grade dogs because they failed to register them . but i would go as far to say that the majority of your big game hunters dont realy care if there dog is papered , as long as the job is done . and most dont care what color they are either , and many have bred walkers with trig's or blue ticks and red ticks plotts , curs , whatever works is what they hunt with , my best cat dog ever was a half walker half trigg , she didnt tree a lick , but you want to talk about a track drivin machine and fast , un godly speed on that dog . was very hard to keep dogs just in hearing distance of her , one of the reasons i sold her . the papers also dont matter on the price they get for them either , unlike here , if your dog is not registered your not gonna sell it , not unless you have an interesting party that sees the dog in action and then from there dont care either , get my meaning ???

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

Todd, I would think this would be the perfect place to use the "Hunting CH"program I saw mentioned a while back. Who better to evaluate the ability of Big game hounds then fellow big game hunters.

These people do not use there dogs for coon for the most part. Why should they have to tree one for an inspector to single reg?

Something like a pack program to measure the ability for big game hounds. Kinda of a cross of the old fox hunt days and comp hunts now.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1522

I think this is a Great Idea, I think it would help the Hunters who have Good hounds that are not regestered. Help the people looking for a Good hound with a recorded history. And let UKC make a impact in the West.
I dont know how to set this up. But I do know that the inspectors
would have to be Real hunters, Who make any inspected dog perform in the woods.
Jess

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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 6113

Good point Larry. Now I'm thinking. (that's dangerous, lol)

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 934

probably doesn't count much. I don't think there should be such a thing as single registration. I believe that if you want registered dogs go buy registered dogs. I have seen many cross bred dogs that would meet breed standards for one of the six breeds. What happens when they get single registered? So much for papers = purebred. If you want grade dogs that's great but I don't believe that people should be able to say that because a dog could pass as a pure bred dog it should be registered. Not trying to pick any fights, just my opinion. As far as U.K.C. goes, where is the integrity of your registration? Single registration seems like one more way to make a buck. What's next? Maybe Hoodles(hound x poodle) or Hugs(hound x pug), what the heck just send your registration fees and call it a breed.

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

quote:

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Originally posted by todd kellam
Good point Larry. Now I'm thinking. (that's dangerous, lol)

---

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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Wi
Posts: 91

.The problem is the fact that so many are never put in the woods and inspected. I have seen this several times here in Wi. Somone just pays the twenty bucks and someone else says Sure I seen the dog tree a coon. I think that is Bull Sh_t.
I think to be single registered a dog has to prove to be a credit to the breed. How to do this with big game dogs a hard one. I only know that the most impotant part is the honesty of the inspector.
Charlie

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

Charlie,

That's why I suggested the Hunting Ch forum. 4 or more hunters go out together. You grade there dogs, they grade yours. I'm sure the Big Game hunters could tweak this to fit any size pack they thought appropriate. If nothing else, it would allow more people to see representatives of other packs. Maybe allow the better Big Game hounds to be used more for upgrading other packs. I really think that was the origenal intention of night hunts.


I go to night hunts to see how my dogs compare to the rest of whats out there. Its easy to think a shiny rock is a diamond if all you have to compare it to is other rocks. Then one day you see a real diamond and find out it was just a shiny rock. I know I have been guilty of it before.

The way I see it, if you just want to reg your dog only go to enough of the trials to do that. Maybe so many points/ others signing off on the dogs ability = single reg.

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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Wi
Posts: 91

I dont know how all that works.But I think your idea is a very good one. Seems like someone should come up with somrthimg like this along time ago.
Charlie

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 6113

Kevin, your opinion is certainly valid and shared by plenty of others. You may be surprised to learn that the opinion of the Registry is more along the lines of "honest" pedigrees than perfectly "pure" pedigrees. In other words, if you give people a vehicle to do what's right and keep their pedigrees honest, it's better than not giving them that vehicle and having pedigrees that are false to start with. By indicating which dogs were single registered, you the perspective buyer can choose to stay away from it. We do so few single registrations per year in comparison that they don't even show up on the radar. It's not about a quick buck.

Another thing, your favorite line in your favorite breed I guarantee you is not pure. They all go back to a out crosses at some point. It's a good thing somebody made that cross a long time ago if you enjoy the hound you're hunting today. You are going to be reading very soon about some new capabilities in the field of DNA testing that are going to blow your mind AND allow us to expand single registration without risking the integrity of our degrees.

What about health issues? Did you know that the Dalmation breed almost across the board suffered from something called liver shunt disease. With one controlled outcross to a pointer, that disease was eliminated from the Dalmation breed. The Dalmations today are no less pure and certainly healthier because of it. That's pretty cool.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Montana
Posts: 424

I agree with Buzzs post and the guidlelines he drew out for big game recognition only. Whether it be cougars, bear, hogs or bobcats.

If this is something that UKC would consider I do not think hounds in the big game category that do get registered through this process should be aloud to breed to a registered coonhound though.

If such crosses are to be made and I am sure they will the pups should not be allowed to be registered coonhounds, I feel it would ruin the integrity of the registry to allow mixing as such. No different then a registered coonhound and a registered cur. Though it may cross for big game they are seperate breeds.

I myself have never been a fan of the current single registry simple because here in the west where coon are far and few between many of our hounds are not coonhounds yet I register every hound just for the paper trail of the pedigree.

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Home of Groom Creek Kennels in the heart of the Rocky Mountains

"Hound Dawgn' the Rockies" hunting videos
www.hounddawgs.net

Last edited by Spanky on 12-27-2006 at 09:21 PM

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

quote:

---

Originally posted by larrypoe
Todd, I would think this would be the perfect place to use the "Hunting CH"program I saw mentioned a while back. Who better to evaluate the ability of Big game hounds then fellow big game hunters.

These people do not use there dogs for coon for the most part. Why should they have to tree one for an inspector to single reg?

Something like a pack program to measure the ability for big game hounds. Kinda of a cross of the old fox hunt days and comp hunts now.

---

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Registered: May 2006
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1344

Wow did this thread explode LOL.

I do think that my dog should prove that he can start, trail, locate and tree a bobcat since that is our game of choice and state law. I don't rig for bobcats where I live, so he must be able to start one out of the road with no help from myself and be dropped on the track.

I don't know how you can get people to inspect for this? Are you going to have state reps or in someone going to have to travel, which is something I would have to do to get my dog single registered anyways. Can we be truthful enough to video and send it in. You should be able to tell that a dog is hunting, trailing and treeing from a video. The problem just runs into people being honest. So I guess people inspecting would have to do the trick.

And as for Kevin's comments, (not trying to start a fight) I don't think grade dogs are better than papered dogs. It is just my grade dogs are working the best for me, I would just like a paper trail for future generations.
And I bet you have some "false" papered dogs in your lines closer than you think. At least with single registering there has to be inspection that your dog meets standards and can hunt. It is more truthfull then just switching papers.. You could have a "Hoodle" as you called it, posing as a PR bred coonhound by switching the papers right. NOt using you as in you are doing it, just a general term.

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OutWest Big Game Hounds

You've only got 3 choices in life, give in, give up, or give it all you got.

Last edited by Melanie H. on 12-27-2006 at 09:57 PM

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1522

If You Only Knew how often that Happens.
That is one reason I seldom use outside dogs in my breeding program. Being in the mid-west often,I check out the few outside dogs that I do use. I check littermates I call the guy who owned the female they are from I hunt with her as often as possibile. I like to look at 3 generations in person if Possible.I even pay other hunters that I know who live closer to the dogs than I do to go check them out. Then and only then do I use a outside dog. There are several dogs being promoted today who do not have the correct prdigree. I understand what a false pedigreed dog can do to a person. I chased a bloodline for years after seeing several that were Just what I wanted after spending several thousand dollars and a number of years I found out why I could not get a dog like the first group that I hunted. There Pedigrees were Wrong. I am SOO glad I never bred to those dogs.
Jess

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 396

a cross between a registered Cur and a registered Hound is reconised by the UKC as a Treeing Cur

you had to bring in Valley, Sis and Dolly since you couldent find any of the Bozo blood in this area, none of those dogs you could have bred Spanky to under your proposed system of not being allowed to breed a Big Game hound to a Coon hound, you woulda had to go threw and reregister all three of them as big game hounds before you coulda bred them to the old man

just a thought

Last edited by Doogie Dawg on 12-27-2006 at 11:50 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Montana
Posts: 424

Doogie you missed my point and the point of this whole thread.

As for my analogy of a hound crossed on a cur your incorrect. Under the current UKC coonhound program a cur can not be crossed to a hound and registered as one of the 6 coonhound breeds.

All of my hounds are registered and bred as coonhounds under the current UKC system. Spanky, Jazz, Valley, Sis and Dolly are all registered coonhounds. The big game registry they are talking about has nothing to do with my hounds.

They are talking about hounds that need to be registered because they never were as a pup or are grade crosses.

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Leave them in the tree if you want to run another day!!!

Scott Sciaretta
Home of Groom Creek Kennels in the heart of the Rocky Mountains

"Hound Dawgn' the Rockies" hunting videos
www.hounddawgs.net

Last edited by Spanky on 12-28-2006 at 12:52 AM

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 396

ok I totaly missunderstood you then wasent the first time and probably wont be the last LOL

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Montana
Posts: 424

thats alright after 10 years Tammy still can't figure me out, haha

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Leave them in the tree if you want to run another day!!!

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Home of Groom Creek Kennels in the heart of the Rocky Mountains

"Hound Dawgn' the Rockies" hunting videos
www.hounddawgs.net

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