Registered: Nov 2009
Location: East Point, Kentucky
Posts: 25

This is a subject hard to discuss. I will start by saying that I know six different trainers that can hand-make a tree dog.

What do I mean by that? I mean a pup that is bred right. One that has not been mistreated. Has litter mates that happen to be naturals and very easy to train.

Let me tell a little story that is fact:
I was taught early in coon hunting by some very talented trainers. Let's take a redbone about 8 - 10 months. This dog is well bred and good looking but he is a Romeo. After checking with all the ladies, he would think it great fun to start a track of his own. The dog did not care what game. When he decided to hunt....well, it was on. He would start the first thing he could find and set fire to it. When it happened to be coon, he would drive to catch then when the coon climbed, he would locate then yodel a time or two, then off for the next track. The next track might be a deer going out of this country. He would also set fire to that.

I asked his owner about this dog and he said the dog had shown hunting ability, brains and a track driving fool.

The owner kept the young dog on the chain until a tree was made. He instructed me to turn off my light until I could get the young dog between me and the dogs that were treed. Then, I was to take a large stick or switch and set his rear end on fire until he bolted. It was very surprising to me the young dog went straight to the tree, parked his rear and treed. I asked if this would ruin the dog. His response was, the dog was no good in his current condition. We would try to help him out. Of course you know the trash breaking and continued correction, no more need to be said about that.

Long story short, at two years of age, he was a coon dog. I bought him at a coon dog price and was glad to get him.

Here are the questions:
Would anyone have culled this dog?
Is this dog stud dog material since he was well bred?
This is one hard headed hound that did not want to tree coon in the start. He was hand-made.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Taylorsville, NC
Posts: 1320

I learned long ago from my dad that you can't make a dog run track or tree. So that being said, the dog had it in him the whole time but he needed someone to teach him right from wrong. I have had several that wouldn't run track at all and just tree. I have had several that would not tree and would just run track. All things a dog does wrong can be corrected if the dog is willing and able to to learn. The hard headed ones just need a little more encouragment so to speak. I will agree that some people are better at bringing out the good in a dog. Sounds to me like this dog was in the right hands at the right time and you ended up with good dog.

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The hard headed one are the ones you want on an old tought night. I don't think there was anything wrong in the first place. You would have to know what was don't with him those first 8 months or so. If he had been allowed to run free he was doing just what I would expect a good hard drive dog to be doing.
That is why I will never let one run free just to get a lot of tracking experience in it. Something with a lot of mottor is going to want to go. With out obeidence and guidence they are going to get in a lot of trouble. Breed? yes I would want to see if it would reproduce.

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I have one question.

How in the world did it not make that dog a me too fool?

Cutting him on other treed dogs and wanting him to bolt straight for a dog?

Funny I do that same thing to a dog that wants to cover another dog except I switch them until they woln't cover anything else. Have had great great success and won many hunts doing this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by treberta
I have one question.

How in the world did it not make that dog a me too fool?

Cutting him on other treed dogs and wanting him to bolt straight for a dog?

Funny I do that same thing to a dog that wants to cover another dog except I switch them until they woln't cover anything else. Have had great great success and won many hunts doing this.

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NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

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Grady, most dogs that I have owned I didn't need to do this with but I have with 2. They both did very well with that. Seems to me that if you hunt youre dogs by themselves 3 to 4 days a week that dog will naturally be indapendent.

There is absolutley nothing to be proud of to have a dog that will run staright to a treed dog just to tree with it. That takes no skill on the dogs part, funny thing is the guy that ownes that dog thinks he has a coon dog. It disgusts me when my dog does this personally.

WHAT PEOPLE DON'T UNDERTAND IT ONLY ONE DOG TREED THAT COON!!!!! NOT 2 OR 3 DOGS BUT ONE DOG WAS THE FASTEST AT RUNNING AND TRACKING IT TO THE TREE. PLAIN AND SIMPLE, ONCE GUYS START REALIZING THIS THE OTHER BREEDS WILL BEGIN TO IMPROVE AND WIN SOME HUNTS.

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quote:

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Originally posted by treberta
Grady, most dogs that I have owned I didn't need to do this with but I have with 2. They both did very well with that. Seems to me that if you hunt youre dogs by themselves 3 to 4 days a week that dog will naturally be indapendent.

There is absolutley nothing to be proud of to have a dog that will run staright to a treed dog just to tree with it. That takes no skill on the dogs part, funny thing is the guy that ownes that dog thinks he has a coon dog. It disgusts me when my dog does this personally.

WHAT PEOPLE DON'T UNDERTAND IT ONLY ONE DOG TREED THAT COON!!!!! NOT 2 OR 3 DOGS BUT ONE DOG WAS THE FASTEST AT RUNNING AND TRACKING IT TO THE TREE. PLAIN AND SIMPLE, ONCE GUYS START REALIZING THIS THE OTHER BREEDS WILL BEGIN TO IMPROVE AND WIN SOME HUNTS.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Radford, Virginia
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quote: "Grady, most dogs that I have owned I didn't need to do this with but I have with 2. They both did very well with that. Seems to me that if you hunt youre dogs by themselves 3 to 4 days a week that dog will naturally be indapendent."


Not trying to be a butt or anything, but if you hunt a dog by itself all that time......how can it be "naturally" independent......didn't the owner make it that way by hunting it by itself? If it was "naturally" independent, wouldn't it be that way from the beginning even if it was started with other dogs? Just curious.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pastor Mike
quote: "Grady, most dogs that I have owned I didn't need to do this with but I have with 2. They both did very well with that. Seems to me that if you hunt youre dogs by themselves 3 to 4 days a week that dog will naturally be indapendent."


Not trying to be a butt or anything, but if you hunt a dog by itself all that time......how can it be "naturally" independent......didn't the owner make it that way by hunting it by itself? If it was "naturally" independent, wouldn't it be that way from the beginning even if it was started with other dogs? Just curious.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
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Huh, so If you get a pup before 8 weeks you gaurantee yourself an independent dog?

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I would have culled the dog and even in his corrected state, I don't feel the dog should be bred regardless of what he might win now. There is enough junk out there to begin with. If this dog naturally didn't want to tree and had to be man made to tree, what about the pups it may produce? Even if the majority do not show this fault, is this the type you want putting out there in the public's hands so they have to go through the same procedures just to get a coondog?

I also wondered, does this dog just cover anything that trees now?

I hate a man made independant dog as much as a man made tree dog. Anyone who needs to beat a dog to make it not cover anything just for the sake of winning nite hunts, thats a joke IMO.

I like an independant hound as much as the next guy. But I don't like a dog that will work a track with a group and refuse to tree with them or one that insists on blowing out of the pocket consistently to get by itself.

If a dog is cast into a woods, it should hunt that woods out. If a dog strikes a coon track along with another dog, both dogs should finish that track but if the dog strikes a track it should finish it regardless of what the other dogs are doing, if they tree it should still finish the track it is working.

I know there are some outstanding trainers out there that can take natural junk running track minded idiots or a wood monster and shape them into consistent cast winners. I don't have a problem with that, but I don't care to see those dogs being bred because there ain't that many good dog trainers out there.

Our young dogs never see more than 1-2 caged coon, if any at all. I've never put much stock into what a dog does on a cage coon, I've seen more dogs spoiled because of them if anything. When the pup is old enough, I simply haul it to the woods with whatever dog I'm hunting at the time. If that pup can't figure out why its supposed to be out there within a short time, than it needs to go in the boneyard. I might give a dog a little encouragement on the tree but not excessively like so many people do. Just enough to let them know that is what they are supposed to do. A scratch behind the ears can go along way. As soon as they can run and tree a coon with little help from another dog, I start hunting them alone a majority of the time. If they are a naturally independant dog thats all a guy should have to do. I might tune them a little on some things like recasting off a tree, or tightening them up if they get to milling, but that's about it.
If I have to do more than that to get a dog to tree coons consistently, I wasn't starting with good stock to begin with. JMO>

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Registered: May 2009
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quote:

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Originally posted by josh
Huh, so If you get a pup before 8 weeks you gaurantee yourself an independent dog?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
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quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
No it can learn it at an older age BUT if you don't get it before that you will have to break it from the habbit. That can be done by keeping it by itself. Getting it early just never lets it get started in the first place.
I have learned the more things you can keep from getting started in the first place the less trouble shooting or breaking you have to do down the road.
Like letting one run loose. I don't do that either.

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It has been my experience that independance in largely bred in a dog, sure you can do some things to sway a dog one way or the other, but your not going to change what they were born wanting to do.

I sure agree with you about not letting things get started, much easier in long run.

Im a big fan of letting a pup run loose.

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quote:

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Originally posted by josh
It has been my experience that independance in largely bred in a dog, sure you can do some things to sway a dog one way or the other, but your not going to change what they were born wanting to do.

I sure agree with you about not letting things get started, much easier in long run.

Im a big fan of letting a pup run loose.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
Posts: 4837

I guess my question becomes "why hand make dogs?". Do you value that dog that much that you are willing to through all the fuss to make that particular dog tree? I think the only people with the patience to put up with this type of task are those that never had a natural that just ran and treed from the get go.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
I was just telling you what the experts in that field say. I don't know crap. If you beleive in not letting them get started on bad habbits. Why would you let them run loose?

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Registered: Oct 2009
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In semi-thick coon to thick coon a man made indipandent dog is a blast to hunt, plain as that.

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It better be in return for all the nights you spent beating him for covering another dog.

Around here, if you're hunting a dog that is alone 99% of them time, you'll be hunting alone that much too because the guys that want to pleasure hunt don't want to be walking to ol DeafEars all night. Not a big deal if you're walking a couple hundred yards. But if you cut loose with your 2 buddies and they're dogs fall treed in the timber you put them in and 1/2 way to them you say "the Garmin says ol Deafears is treed .9 miles over yonder. I'd better drive around and go get him." They ain't exactly going to bother calling you next time they want to go hunting.

But from all your posts, I doubt you'd care.

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Registered: Jun 2003
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IMO a coondog should be concerned with getting under a coon above all else, in company or alone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by josh
IMO a coondog should be concerned with getting under a coon above all else, in company or alone.

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Registered: May 2009
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quote:

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Originally posted by krh156
Notice above this dog was well bred. His ancestors are being bred and hunted today.

This is a true story, so I have to stick with facts. The young dog was road killed just over two years of age.

More info would be that this was NOT a me too dog. Just as he could drive a track, he also would grab a tree. He was beautiful, big, loud. Also he was extremely fast and would hold his tree. He would throw his own father out of a driving race and tree. His father was a grand of good quality. The old dog was hard to get a tree on, but if the coon would cover country, the young dog would probably get that tree. I am speaking of a quality dog made by one of the best handlers I have known.

No one taught this dog to go hunting. Get struck and take his tracks as they came. No one taught this dog to take an old cold feeder track, unwind it and get it going.

It did take twice as long to get him finished because of his problems.

He had litter mates that started naturally.

I knew this would bring different opinions. As for myself I would not breed to him.

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krh156, Ok I don't know nothing about genetics so be patient.
How do you know the dog was n/t? If he was allowed to run free and tree till he wore himself out and come home when he was a pup and allowed to give up on a tree over and over. Would that not have influence on his treeing and how long he stayed and would it not influence different dogs differantly?

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Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
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NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

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quote:

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Originally posted by krh156
I felt him to be N/t because he had litter mates in the same enviornment that would tree on anything above their heads. We had to be careful not to create slick tree dogs. I can't type enough to let you know how this one dog was trained, singled out and handled. He was a problem that was corrected and made right. The end result was a fine hound. I just think it unlikely he could throw better than himself. Let's do another example. Let's make a cross with him and his likeness:

one litter of eight pups

N/t x N/t = N/N (two pups that would be culls)
N/t (four hybrid dogs for tree traits)
t/t (two dogs bred properly for tree traits)

Here is some facts that will help me and you. I witnessed, notice I didn't heard about, two world champions that were hand made by two different trainers. They both won the world, but failed in misery in the stud pen. This is a hard subject because a lot of people breed to what they can see. These two world champions bred great amounts of females, while neither was a natural tree dog.

I hope this helps........Ken

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Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
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CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

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quote:

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Originally posted by krh156
This post is old by the dog I have been using. It caused a lot of PM's.

I mention this because two of the men involved have passed away. Two more outstanding hound dog men gone. On the other side, it was good hearing from old friends, but this news has set me back a bit.

On the other hand, let me say, I would do my best not to loose a hound that could be trained. Even if I would not keep him for breeding purposes. Hear is another question. If we trained a hard case such as this one and we decided to sell it. What should the buyer be told? If a young hunter needed just a good hound or a pup trainer, then we should need to say nothing. What if a man wanted breeding stock what would need to be said?

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Grady Jarvis
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Tonkawa Okla. 74653
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NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

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