Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 284

I have an ARHA club in my town. I'm thinking of going to a little pack hunt. I read the rules and can't seem to understand how a judge is going to score a pack of 6 hounds with no input from the handlers. How is this judge going to follow the dogs and see who strikes, who jumps, etc at all times? It seems a little far fetched to me that a judge could keep honest track of what's going on.

Input from experience?

Thanks.

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2789

I have a poor opinion on ARHA judges. It is a joke to me. I see enough mistakes standing next to the judges in UKC casts. They can't keep track of what is going on. It can be a popularity contest instead of a beagle contest, in my humble opinion.

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Barboursville,WV
Posts: 321

I HAVE RAN ARHA LITTLE PACK FOR 3 YEARS NOW.I AM A JUDGE AND YOU WILL MISS A FEW THINGS BUT NOT MUCH!! A JUDGE RUNS WITH THE DOGS AND THEY ARE ONLY 5 NOT 6 DOGS TO A CAST.DON`T KNOCK IT TO YOU TRY IT A FEW TIMES.I ALSO RUN UKC AND IT IS A WHOLE LOT EASYER TO CHAMPION OUT A DOG IN UKC THEN IT IS ARHA.I DIDN`T LIKE UKC THE FIRST TIME I TRY IT,BUT I LOVE IT NOW.THE SAME WAY WITH ARHA.DIDN`T LIKE IT WHEN I FIRST TRY IT , BUT LOVE IT.IN ARHA YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF THE BETTER DOG WINNING.IN UKC IT IS LUCK AND IT`S NOT ALWAYS THE BETTER DOG THAT WINS.GO TRY IT A FEW TIMES AND GET YOU OWN OPINION AND DON`T LISTEN TO THE OTHER GUYS ON WHAT SAY. NOW THAT IS MY OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



THANKS,
Greg Hunter

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Calhoun KY
Posts: 995

Not much Difference in judging as AKC Still just one or two Guys Chasing Dogs around You Get What you Can Get..
How Does a UKC PP judge Score the hounds Without the help of the handlers???? BUT Still they Do it all the time..
just Go and ask to Follow along With the judge SEE FOR YOURSELF....Now if H&H were to get in and Follow the hounds more I think they Would also be Surprised With What Some of the hounds are actually Doing....Or NOT Doing!!!
Just Cause it was first on the line Dont mean it was doing all the work....

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: huntington,wv
Posts: 72

Guys I will have to disagree with you on this one. First of all UKC is my bread and butter but I have run some Arha. I have seen good judges in both dont get me wrong there are both. But I think the old rule dont knock something until you try it maybe a good rule to go by on this one. I WAS THE SAME WAY I WILL NOT LIKE THIS FORMAT but I do like it. And yes I have seen judges who believe it or not I think could out run the dogs. Yes they will miss things from time to time but honestly who doesnt. I think for the most part the judges will give their all. So no I dont think it is just a big popularity contest. Heck I still havent won a cast in ARHA yet but I have seen some very nice dogs in both formats. And last time I checked IT WAS ONLY 5 dogs to a cast. SO sounds like to me someone doesnt know what they are talking about. Guys just remember not every format is right for everyone just dont knock which ever format you choose. WE HAVE TO REMEMBER ITS ABOUT THE DOGS AND NOT THE HANDLERS BEHIND THE DOGS.

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2789

I have some beagles that have broke some ARHA judges from running behind the beagles to try to keep up. They couldn't do it. A old fat boy like me is too old and wise to run behind beagles any more and I don't trust some young guy to know enough to judge my beagles. Like I said, I see enough mistakes standing next to the judges.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
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quote:

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Originally posted by Lakeland Kennel
....... I don't trust some young guy to know enough to judge my beagles.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Calhoun KY
Posts: 995

quote:

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Originally posted by jackbob42
That's the trouble , most folks don't see their dogs the same way the judges ( or anybody else for that matter ) do.
Alot of folks just can't seem to see the faults in their own dogs so , in their opinion , the judges don't know what they're doing , can't keep up enough to know , too young to know , etc.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 333

i started running in ARHA - then started UCKing later on.

the ONLY thing I don't like about ARHA is that there are never enough
judges and some of the casts ultimately end up sitting at the clubhouse until 10am before they get to go out and run for their hour cast (this is not really a fault, as most usually there are 2 judges per cast).

as far as judging, ARHA is the easiest rulebook you will ever learn.
only the first dog to strike, jump and come out of a check is the only dog that scores. it is a good format, and is especially nice during the hot summer months (1 hour casts).

i've never been out on an ARHA cast where there weren't 2 judges, and I've never felt like I was "cheated" by any of the judges.

Lastly, some "Kudos" - Hunter Greg is the best ARHA judge I have ever seen. Laneline, I'd take his chances of keeping up with ANY beagle anyday! I've seen him stay with beagles on a hot deer track. While many judges would have scratched the dogs (because they didn't feel like making sure it was off game), Hunter Greg stayed with the beagles until he saw the deer... you'll not find a better ARHA judge than Hunter Greg (and you can ask any ARHA-er that has ever been on a cast judged by Hunter Greg - the man has quite the reputation in the ARHA for his DESIRE to judge fairly and not allow the cast of dogs to leave him).

I've got other stories about ARHA judges that are similar - so if you go to an ARHA hunt and find that its a popularity contest, find another club. I can assure you that most ARHA judges you will run under are quality and fair guys.

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Last edited by browntrout on 06-16-2009 at 02:07 PM

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Registered: Apr 2009
Location: ky
Posts: 26

My concerns with UKC hunts is that a dominate personality will control the cast.How often does the score keeper win the cast?In Arha judges miss a lot of the scoring and most people have never gotten beat,they are always cheated.Akc is good that you send a judge out and he brings back the dog he thinks is best,but alot of us likes to suck up to the big boys.Like the gentleman said above find your format and enjoy it.We all like certain things in a dog ,sometimes we can not agree,it is hard to judge keep score or what ever, our clubs need to police the trouble makers a little better and a lot of us need to grow up and accept the fact we can not always have things go the way we want.

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Registered: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 287

One hour is not enough time to tell the better dog.I run H & H I would like to see the final four be two hrs instead of one hour.Every format has there faults.Not always judges fault.

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Registered: May 2006
Location: MORGANTOWN, WV
Posts: 38

quote:

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Originally posted by Lakeland Kennel
I have some beagles that have broke some ARHA judges from running behind the beagles to try to keep up. They couldn't do it. A old fat boy like me is too old and wise to run behind beagles any more and I don't trust some young guy to know enough to judge my beagles. Like I said, I see enough mistakes standing next to the judges.

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Registered: May 2006
Location: MORGANTOWN, WV
Posts: 38

quote:

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[i] How is this judge going to follow the dogs and see who strikes, who jumps, etc at all times? It seems a little far fetched to me that a judge could keep honest track of what's going on.
[/B]

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Registered: Dec 2008
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So, for example, you turn the dogs loose and the 5 dogs go in 5 different directions. How do 2 judges follow 5 dogs going different ways? (even 3 different ways for that matter). You can't follow them all. So if you must personally see them strike, I don't see how it can be done. I don't know about other beagles, but mine hunt.

I have one hound that hunts like a coon hound. When you turn him loose, he's GONE! He'll jump a rabbit somewhere. You better just turn him loose in some or he'll go as far as needed to get one up. On a day when they're not out that good he may jump one almost out of hearing. Now tell me, how does the judge keep up with that? I just don't see it happening in my mind. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock the format, I'm just asking what's on my mind.

I run my three hounds behind my house almost every night and there is no way I could keep an eye on all three at the same time. They do as they should and spread out, looking in different areas. They may be a couple hundred yards apart at times, until one jumps a rabbit. How do you watch them all and if you don't what does a judge do when a dog strikes in that he can't see or get to by it's third bark?

What is the purpose of the 3 bark to strike in rule? I have one hound that if he barks, the rabbit is UP - EVERY TIME, but he doesn't bark a lot. He bawls. So, he jumps a rabbit and bawls. In UKC, I'd strike him before his bawl was done because I know that rabbit is up for sure. In ARHA he could jump that rabbit close to another dog and not get any strike points because the other dog barked 3 times before he did. This doesn't make sense. It could happen to him all day long because he won't bark unless his nose is in the rabbits butt. In order for him to get those points the judge would physically have to see him jump that rabbit, only then would he get the strike and jump points. My neighbors beagle chops and will bark 100 times for every 10 that this hound does. I want to depend on my dog, not on the judge.

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Registered: May 2006
Location: MORGANTOWN, WV
Posts: 38

"So, for example, you turn the dogs loose and the 5 dogs go in 5 different directions. How do 2 judges follow 5 dogs going different ways? (even 3 different ways for that matter). You can't follow them all. So if you must personally see them strike, I don't see how it can be done. I don't know about other beagles, but mine hunt.

I have one hound that hunts like a coon hound. When you turn him loose, he's GONE! He'll jump a rabbit somewhere. You better just turn him loose in some or he'll go as far as needed to get one up. On a day when they're not out that good he may jump one almost out of hearing. Now tell me, how does the judge keep up with that? I just don't see it happening in my mind. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to knock the format, I'm just asking what's on my mind."

You're missing part of the rules of ARHA, the judge doesn't have to see the strike, -"In the situation where the judge cannot determine which hound barked on the strike, he/she may ask the handlers which hound barked. If the majority of handlers agree on which hound opened first, the judge shall award strike points."



"What is the purpose of the 3 bark to strike in rule? I have one hound that if he barks, the rabbit is UP - EVERY TIME, but he doesn't bark a lot. He bawls. So, he jumps a rabbit and bawls. In UKC, I'd strike him before his bawl was done because I know that rabbit is up for sure. In ARHA he could jump that rabbit close to another dog and not get any strike points because the other dog barked 3 times before he did. This doesn't make sense. It could happen to him all day long because he won't bark unless his nose is in the rabbits butt. In order for him to get those points the judge would physically have to see him jump that rabbit, only then would he get the strike and jump points. My neighbors beagle chops and will bark 100 times for every 10 that this hound does. I want to depend on my dog, not on the judge."

Then that dog wouldn't fit into the ARHA format, but may do well in another format.

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Barboursville,WV
Posts: 321

Thanks browntrout for everything you said about me.That was very nice of you to say that.THANK YOU !!!

(justsandm) Most good Judges keep the dogs somewhat close to them. I myself like to keep the dogs at about 50 yards to me.

EVERYONE THAT DON`T RUN ARHA NEEDS TO READ THE RULES AND THEN GO TRY IT A FEW TIMES AND IF YOU DON`T LIKE IT THEN STAY OUT.SAME WAY WITH UKC.

(Lakeland Kennel) I hope you don`t trial.Because if you don`t win then it is the (JUDGES fault RIGHT) !!!!!!!!!!!

I LOVE TO RUN IN UKC AND ARHA ...

IN AKC from what i have seen is nothing but a BEER PARTY!!!!
I have been to one AKC and i will try it another time.Not going
to let the one time give me a bad taste.

I most of the time Judge by myself. I am just that way.I FOR MOST OF THE TIME DON`T MISS NOT A THING.99.99% OF THE TIME DON`T MISS NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AM NOT BRAGGING!!!! I KNOW THAT I AM A @#$% GOOD JUDGE.
COME AND RUN WITH ME ANYTIME YOU WANT AT A FIELD TRIAL AND JUDGE WITH ME!!!!!! IF YOU CAN!!!!! I GO 100% BY THE RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@#$% HAPPENS

This is all that i am putting on here because i will say something that i wouldn`t want to say.


Thanks,
Greg Hunter

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Last edited by Bad Luck Kennels on 06-17-2009 at 03:32 AM

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Marion Co Wv
Posts: 124

I myself really like the ARHA LP style. I have been to serveral hunts at differant clubs. I have never left feeling cheated. The judges work hard and I think do the best they can to see what really happens and do a good job. I think I know WvHUNTER and if its who I think he can judge my beagles any day. And If its him he comptetes with someone else handleing his dogs so he can go judge a cast. Doesnt even get to see his dogs work just gets the results when they all come back in. I think most ARHA judges do the same thing since you cant judge a cast with your dogs in it.. I wish I felt the same about UKC nite hunts. I hope to one of these days at least go see a UKC beagle trial and see the format they use..

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Registered: May 2006
Location: MORGANTOWN, WV
Posts: 38

Yes buckskin it's me. I think the last I saw one of my dogs compete was early March just b/c she made it the finals. I don;t judging to help make the trial go smoothly and end at a reasonable time.

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: NE OHIO
Posts: 832

You won't find better prize packages than UKC anywhere in the world of beagling!

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Registered: May 2006
Location: MORGANTOWN, WV
Posts: 38

quote:

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Originally posted by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL
You won't find better prize packages than UKC anywhere in the world of beagling!

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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: western pa
Posts: 57

its easy to see the bad dogs in ahra-problem is the rule book does nothing to get them out of the 60 minute cast.
i beleive that the judges score what the see and some think they see something that was a check when it was a rough dog with too much mouth bustin out like it has the line then it swings back on in for another try.still keeps it check points though
a dog opens and 2 minutes later another dog opens 30 yards away from where the first one gave mouth,and off they go.-score the first dog even though it never had a rabbit
ahra rulebook is really forgiving for some really rough dogs .all ya need to win is a mouthy dog that opens off the leash,if you are in good rabbit country a different dog will find a rabbit and the mouthy one gets the score,if not so ya minus out and get sent home to try and win a cast with a rough dog.
them poor judges come back all cut up so i think they try thier best

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Registered: May 2006
Location: MORGANTOWN, WV
Posts: 38

As a judge for ARHA. It's not hard to find out which dog is mouthy and which dog is true. it's takes about one check to see what's going on. Example, last weekend our club held a hunt. I was judging a 5 dog cast, dog A opens 3 or 4 times on the left in a fence row, once the other dogs get down to him he breaks off to the right of a walking path and starts barking around. after 3 mins of not producing a rabbit Dog A gets minus points. Then later in the cast the dogs are in a check area right in front of me Dog A leaves the check barking for about 20 feet then turns around comes back, then barks off in another direction. well Dog B stayed in the check area and worked it really well and figures it out and goes. I gave the check to dog B. before the cast time was over Dog A ended up minus out and heading back to the truck. You gotta use common sense and take your time as a judge. You can't have a happy scoring pencil.

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2789

It is not always the judge's fault, the rules have a lot to do with it. I have seen a number of what I thought were squirrel tracks scored as plus points. (I have UKC Squirrel Champions) UKC is getting just as bad as guys are claiming "holes" on squirrel tracks and not getting minussed as they should.

And, yes, I have carried my camcorder on several ARHA hunts also. I have the Little Pack President and Secretary judging a cast where I was hunting a little female that had won three 1st place wins in a row in UKC. A dog out of the Secretarie's kennel won the cast, imagion that.

In ARHA, any kind of track can be scored, rabbit or not,

I have seen several big winning ARHA dogs minus out in a UKC hunt quickly on 100 yard tracks my broke beagle would not open on. In fact, I have it on video.

No, you won't see me at any ARHA hunts even though I have friends that put them on. To each their own.

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LAKELAND KENNELS
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Gr Ch Lakeland's Phoebe
PKC Sq Ch Lakeland's Mini Mouse
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: NORTH CENTRAL WV
Posts: 571

squirrel tracks
thats a new one on me I havent seen many sq in the brush where I run

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Coshocton,Ohio
Posts: 2613

I was not going to post on this, but after reading some of the post's I will. Why are we always cutting one associtation apart from another? Aren't our goals to better the sport of beagleing, instead of knocking each others associtation. No one forces us to go to a UKC, ARHA, AKC or PKC event, its our choice.
When it come's to judging, in UKC the cast has a right to vote, but in ARHA, AKC you are asking the judge or judges to do thier best and bring the best dog back. But you do have a right to take it back to master of hounds or a committe, for their ruleing and file a protest.
Rules is another thing that we complain about, and there is only two things I can say about them. Enforce them as they where written or send in your request to the associatation for a rule change. We also have state representatives that where elected, voice your opions to him or her.
Here's the last thing, I will comment on, we all love the competion of what ever sport, we are involved in, but there are a lot of anti's out there, trying to stop or change it, and if you don't beleive this, don't ever forget 9-11.
God bless the USA and those whom are fighting to keep all are freedoms.

Last edited by thornie on 06-20-2009 at 10:52 AM

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