Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Columbus, Ks
Posts: 5398

Opinions ..............

If a gyp is bred to a different top coondog everytime and produces 60 pups and 25% are Nt Ch or better does it take 25% Nt. Ch or better for the stud dog to be equal on reproduction to that gyp. Given the gyps bred to the stud are equal to the different stud dogs used on the top gyp.

I understand that the top stud dog don't sire pups from the top ten gyps in the country. Guess what, I bet most of them are average unless your stud fee is $500 or more and no pup deals.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Columbus, Ks
Posts: 5398

I guess the female that reproduces from different studs are superior.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Taylorsville, NC
Posts: 1320

Just look in the back of the Bloodlines. The answer is there. A female bred to six different studs has 60 pups and 55% are ntch or better. Those same studs are bred to a different female and she produces 60 pups and only 15% are ntch or better. Is it the super studs or the female? I say the break down would be a 75% or more female to a 25% or less stud. The stud gives some of his traits but if all the studs produced no matter what, you could breed an unproven female and get super pups. So why are the female percentages higher than the males. A dog with more pups should have a higher percentage if he produces his likeness. The proven reproducing females should charge a fee like the stud fees are charged and the stud owners should have to pay to breed to her. How many people would pay to breed to Jodie if she were still alive? Alot of the top females could have been bred to mutts and still produced coondogs. Just my opinion but the female is the base to your breeding program.

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Brian Teague 252-649-3050

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Registered: Nov 2008
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I AGREE BUILD YOUR BREEDING PROGRAM ON THE FEMALES

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Kings Mtn, KY
Posts: 225

impossible to figure this one out!!!

you have to figure the pleasure hunter factor .
all pups are not competition hunted.

you cant base how a dog reproduces on what titles his or her pups earn

the reason the females percentages are higher is because the lower number of pups produced

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Last edited by c.salyers on 03-21-2009 at 07:07 AM

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Registered: Jun 2008
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The lower number is right. The true test of any breeding is how many make it to the top level. I will say they are some that never get into the right comp. hunter hands but I think this is the best way to see. A male has 3,000 pups and only a percentage of 11%. That is 330 titled dogs. A female has 60 pups and a 60%. That is 36 titled dogs. If the female could have as many pups as the male can sire her total number of titled pups even dropping it 15% to 45% of 3,000 pups would still be higher than the stud. She would have 1,350 titled pups. Taken into consideration not all of her pups that made it were ever comp hunted. I have heard all the hype about studs and not much for the female. A good producing female will carry any stud. True the more you breed a dog the better you can tell what they will produce and with what bloodline they cross best with. But I will never be convinced that the female is not the backbone of any breed. The numbers are to much in her favor.

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Brian Teague 252-649-3050

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Just goes to show if you want to produce a small number of high quality pups, you better own the female. Female owners have 100% control of the breeding matches, more control of the pups and can greatly affect the outcome of the % by hunting just one pup from each litter.

If you want to produce a large number of pups and will trade some quality to do it, then you better own the stud. Stud owners are more or less stuck with whatever females are brought in. They seldom have any control over the pups and if they are breeding many females, there are too many pups for them to have as much impact on the % by hunting pup(s) themselves.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: sc
Posts: 801

Male cant hold up to the same standard as a female cause people will bring junk females to breed to your male in hopes of making a little extra money on the pups.

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but Without those junk gyps gettin bred to a stud, how would you know how prepotent or dominant for hunting traits he is? Like ya'll said a good reproducing gyp can sure make a stud look good, but on them junk gyps, he's gonna have to do some dominating.Something to ponder.

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Waynesburg, KY
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But I know you've got to realize that the junk females or males for that matter can absolutley ruin the success of any cross. I know I don't like a shy dog in any way & definitley won't own one & most certainly wont breed one. Some will, for what ever reason is beyond me. If I own them they're as bold & freindly as can be. I also can't stand a babbler& definitley won't own or breed a dog runner. If I breed them personally they must be a dog that can do it all by themselves & be a coondog . I most of all can't stand ill dogs & absolutley wont breed one & wish others wouldn't breed junk period as they're in my opinion the demise of any good stud or the junk studs can be the demise of a top reproducing female in my opinion.Most of all why is everyone breed treedog to treedog & not breed for balance & tracking ability first???

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Jacksonville FL
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quote:

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Originally posted by c.salyers


the reason the females percentages are higher is because the lower number of pups produced

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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Pound va
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quote:

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Originally posted by joseph mcdonald
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but Without those junk gyps gettin bred to a stud, how would you know how prepotent or dominant for hunting traits he is? Like ya'll said a good reproducing gyp can sure make a stud look good, but on them junk gyps, he's gonna have to do some dominating.Something to ponder.

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: salt rock w.v
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WHY WOULD YOU PUT THOSE JUNK GYPS IN THERE TO WATER DOWN THE GENETICS YOU HAVE BRED FOR MANY GENERATIONS
THIS IS NOT A THOUGHT THIS IS A FACT.AND I AGREE WITH LES ONCE AGAIN LETS BREED A LITTLE BALANCE NOT
JUST TREE MONGREL

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Last edited by larry ross on 03-23-2009 at 04:11 PM

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Columbus, Ks
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In the bluetick breed and other breeds may be the same. When a proven cross is found it is made time and time again. Those reproduction percentages are misleading on both male and female if this is done. Cory Mailes Sue gyp has been bred to 7 different studs, never twice to any and produced top hounds from every stud. I call her a reproducer. Would that be the same as breeding a stud to seven top gyps?

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

Excellent point Blueticker!

Larry Ross, just because someone makes an experimental cross of that nature doesnt mean you have to use it back in your program. Several people still just hunt and dont want to fuss around raising dogs. I agree, balance thats what I'm after, but I'll make sure if I have a dog I'm raising pups from, he will be bred to a few experimental gyps before I go tellin someone what he throws. Thats all I was saying.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 2162

(1) Females. You can pretty much have your choice of what males in the country you'd like to breed to for approx $200-$300 (some a little more $'s).

(2) Males. If I had a top male,and had the same options of breeding to any females in the country that I wanted to for approx $200-$300 (or a little more), I'd bet that you'd get an excellent % from the males.

I don't think females produce any better or worse than males, or vice-versa. As a matter of fact, every pup I've ever seen (good or bad) come from one of each (male and female). Simple facts.

That said, if I wanted to raise an outstanding litter, I'd start with an outstanding female, because I'd have my choice of what male to breed to. If you have an outstanding male, you don't have those same options available to you!!!

I would say that the females do have a somewhat greater influence on the pups. Not only do they contribute their 50% of genetics, but they also raise the pups (that does have some influence).

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

"I don't think females produce any better or worse than males, or vice-versa. As a matter of fact, every pup I've ever seen (good or bad) come from one of each (male and female)."LOL

It is much easier breeding a good female than a male. I had a very nice male who was out of a top litter. His sisters reproduced very well. I was able to only breed to two females. One was a buddies very nice female. The other female was one I purchased, and ended up being a mistake. I tried to lease females, but I am a working family man. In the last 2 months of the ole boy's life, Joe did offer one of his females. If the ole boy was a year younger, I would have took him up on his offer.

Fact remains if you can't spend the money to promote a male, ya are pretty much stuck up you know what creek w/o a paddle.

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

Larry Atherton, I quess I dont understand your last sentence in your last post?

I suppose you could be right, if your goal is winning the world hunt, or trying to get on the top reproducers list.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

I am assuming you understand the up a creek part.lol

It is easier to breed a good male when you promote the male and get him out in front of the public. I do not and never did want to have a stud dog ... too many headaches. I also have no desire to win a world hunt. In fact, I got burned out on large hunts years ago.

I did have chances to breed a couple of females that had traits that I was not interested in, and decided not to do that. Each time I saw a female that I liked, I could not get their owners interest.

My goals have pretty much stayed the same since I started breeding dogs. I want to produce high percentage litters that make their owners happy, and help me keep the type of dog I like to hunt. My goals are nothing more or less. I will admit those are pretty meager goals, but just the same I was not able to breed my male to quality females like he should have been. Trust me, I tried hard for his last 11 years.

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Registered: Jul 2003
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Larry, I do believe your goals are for the right reason. My old Joe dog was a Gr. Nt and a very average reproducer. He did produce a few real nice hounds. I got a set of papers back on my Rip dog yesterday and noticed Cory's Pete dog had 16 NC/GN from 129 pups with two or three more that may get finished. Sue the dam of Pete has 11 NC/GN from 50 pups with two or three more with first place wins. Cory had two real nice young dogs from Sue drowned by a coon that would have made it. Cory bred Sue to top hounds but his Pete dog was only bred to one Gr Nt female and that was Jean's Blue Ruby. Five pups resulted and there all nice hounds. With that cross and two others producing most of Pete's top hounds. Cory let Pete do his own advertisement. I have mentioned on this board that Pete would have been one of the best ever if he had sired a large number of pups.

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Waynesburg, KY
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Nuts' mother was bred to 5 different studs that I know of & reproduced GrNtChs'coondogs from every one of them.His sire Balls Stylish Harry was a reproducer too as we all know. Nut is definitley a reproducer & if enough of the right kind of females are bred to him, he will show up in a very big way. He is extremely dominate & reproduces dogs that make very nice coondogs & are capable of winning anywhere. It's a very expensive thing to promote a stud dog , but when you start hearing & seeing first hand what they reproduce it's all worth it. Chris & I have been very fortunate when it comes to some very nice quality females being bred to Nut. Yes the 3 generation all grand pedigree is nice, but would rather see a top notch coondog female bred than one just bred because of the paperwork. Now that being said when it comes to females being bred to a stud, you're going to get all kinds from the person that raises only a few top quality pups & the ones that breed to sell pups only & will breed anything. We will not breed a female for ourselves if we've not evaluated them for ourselves & checked out the pups they've produced. I only keep pups from nice top notch females & don't know why anyone would breed one that wasn't.

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