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Lee Stocking
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 3234

Read the letter from a FORD Dealer/non coon related

Anyone seeing the effects of the slow down in your industry? For those w/out jobs dont buy. Our wants/needs change. Do you work in the food industry, computer, retail? You'll all be affected by the big three. By simply saying "LET THEM BURN" you are cutting your own wallet in a way unimaginable. Read below.





Written to the Senator from Alabama from a Ford dealer.
It's worth your Time to read.


As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.
Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.
When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama 's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.
The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.
So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.
So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit . Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way.
Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?



Jim Jackson
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Old Post 12-11-2008 09:33 PM
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wildbill
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from what i been reading is they want to help the big3
but there is stuff "added to the bill that if passed'" will give raise's to people(congress i think)
not got nothing to do with the big 3 plus other stuff tacked onto the bill to sneak a free ride that also got nothing to do with the big 3 problem,,

the big problem on the bill to help the big 3 is

"all the freeloaders trying to hitch a ride on the bill to help the auto people"

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Old Post 12-11-2008 09:45 PM
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rrs
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republicans in the senate, some demos too are not supporting the legislation even though President Bush has encouraged them to do so... they have proposed that the uaw agree to accept a wage package in line with what the japanese are paying here... also more regulations-safeguards.... the amercian cars today are quality and compare to anything being built anywhere by anyone... the auto industry accounts for at least 10% of all jobs and in many communties over 25% are related to auto business....
tough issue, but the ramifications of the industry failing would be catrostrophic for our nation and economy... the bailout for wall st.-investment banks-financial industry has been grossly mismanaged, believe the public and congress fear more of the same, Sec. Paulson must be the worst Treasury head in history and has set the tone for what many feel about what has and may still happen in obligating the public for private sector debts.... not something most want to do, but may have no choice if do not want to make things even worse...

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Old Post 12-11-2008 11:01 PM
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Stephen Chamblee
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I do not want them to burn but...... If they go into bancruptcy they will be able to renegotiate wages with the unions. with being bailed out they will not.

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Old Post 12-11-2008 11:06 PM
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elvis
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just for discussion....

if we have a company so large that we cant let it fail because it will send us spiraling into a depression and therefore threatning the security of the country, would we not be fools to not insure that this can not happen again in the future and break this large company into several smaller ones that can be run more efficently and effectively.?

I see a bottomless pit that this countrys taxpayers will be throwing money in for many years and never get it full, let alone get any back.

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Old Post 12-12-2008 12:01 AM
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gbutler
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Just wondering, why hasnt it been mention in the media (atleast to my knowledge) that Chrysler isnt an American owned company. They are part of Daimler, along with Mercedes. I understand that they are a large part of the US economy but why should the United States government bail out a foriegn owned company?

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Old Post 12-12-2008 12:54 AM
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rrs
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chrysler is no longer part of benz, now owned by a private equity firm....

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Old Post 12-12-2008 01:03 AM
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rance56
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paulson is having to try to manage something that has never been done before and its only been a couple of months, how can you judge just what type of a judge he is doing fairly at this point.

ford and gm absoluelty make a good truck and they are competitive in price, and they sell plenty of them-so what has them on the edge of bankruptcy? the uaw contracts. and at the same time, just what type of shape do you think the uaw is in?

all these folks crying about the trickle down effect of the big 3 heading into bankrupcty, are the same ones that try to tell us trickle down economics doesnt work. so it works one way but not the other?

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Old Post 12-12-2008 01:21 AM
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coonhunter, MO
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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: central Missouri
Posts: 414

union wages

Rosco , what is wrong with union wages ? THEY, are not what is bringing down the big three. Union wages only count for 10% of the big three exspences. what is wrong with earning a decent living, Union members are not RITCH! they just feel that giving a hard days work , for some up to 30yrs+ that they recieve a decent pay with benifits,& retirement. I think the problem is that the foriegn car companys and Congressman like Shelby in Ala.want all the money for them selves. Also i think alot of people don't realize that all the money they spend on foriegn cars,except workers wages GO back to JAPAN. After 9/11 what help that these foriegn car makers (DID NOT DO FOR AMERICAN ,AND FORIEGN PEOPLE IN THIS TIME OF NEED I'LL NEVER UNDERSTAND WHY ANYONE WOULD SUPPORT THESE COMPANYS.) The workers at these factories need to study,and thank the UNION for what little insurance,& benefits they have. These companys don't just give you these. they don't want you to bring in the UNION !. If I worked at one of these companies i would try to bring in the UNION so i could make a better living to support my family and to keep your work and health, acceptable .These foriegn car companies are sending all that money back to Japan for thier COUNTRY to enjoy!

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Old Post 12-12-2008 01:32 AM
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stinkbait1
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Registered: Apr 2008
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why should we bail them out? we the tax payers aer gonna have to pay for it either way. bailing them out ain't gonna fix the problem, i say let them fall. this economy is a long way from gettin fixed and bailing out the big 3 ain't gonna help the situation that we're in at all.

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Old Post 12-12-2008 01:34 AM
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coldtrail
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If they industry doesn't want to change don't ask for my money. Why isn't toyota in trouble? If you can't make ends meet you cut expenses, that not rocket science. Why cant the workers pay the price instead of me???????????



Ford said they don't need it, this letter is more than likely bogus.

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Old Post 12-12-2008 02:27 AM
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Wingman66
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GM Revenues 2008 - $182,347,000,000

GM Profits 2008 - $-38,732,000,000

Being a business owner myself I have to sit here and shake my head. How in Gods name do you let your company lose 38 billion dollars while sitting at your desk watching it happen? I dropped a quarter at a coke machine the other day and it took me 20 minutes to find it. If i lost 38 billion dollars I would drop dead in my tracks from a stroke.

Elvis makes a very good point. At one time I had a hundred different mills I could buy from. The big boys started buying up the little guys until now I have 3 mills that I can buy from. It only makes sense that 100 mills can take a loss better than 3 can.

I dont know if anyone here knows Mr Wagnor at gm but if you do please give him a message for me. You need to look into a new line of work because when it comes to running a company you ain't from crap. If I was your boss and you think I'm going to pay you 14 million to put my company 38 billion in debt, you are insane. Heck I could have got sheepster to do that and he'd settled for 4 million and I could have saved 10...

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Old Post 12-12-2008 03:00 AM
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Wingman66
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How can a government that is about 10 trillion dollars in debt bail out a company? Sounds to me like the government itself needs a bailout. Anybody have china's phone number?

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I have to say yall got a good little support group going. Huddle together so yall can keep warm...trackdriver

"Kim Jong-Un speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.” An actual sitting US President said that. Let that sink in.

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Old Post 12-12-2008 03:04 AM
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STROKIN
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Registered: Dec 2004
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There is alot of blame to go around. Union workers making $27 an hour and wanting more. Big wigs getting $10,000,000 bonuses.
Wasn't it not long ago that GM was talking about buying out Chrysler? What happened to the money they were going to use that for? They will not go under if they don't get the money. Delfi didn't go under. GM can do the same as they did.

About the workers , working hard for their money. I'm sure some do, but I know for a fact that many don't. I saw many work harder to get out of work, than to just do their job.

Pouring water into a bucket with a hole in it, will never fix the hole.

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Old Post 12-12-2008 03:41 AM
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Joey Donelson
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What is sad is that many retired workers who are old and unable to work anymore will lose their pensions. They worked all their life looking to the day they could retire with enough to live comfortably and now through no fault of their own it will be taken from them.

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Old Post 12-12-2008 07:06 AM
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meatman
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spent billions on a war for nothing 1000's of kids killed your hurt.and to help are own no?????

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Old Post 12-12-2008 02:20 PM
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Joey Donelson
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Another question that we might ask is whats going to happen to all those warranties on the new vehicles they sold if they have to go into bankruptcy? Doesn't bankruptcy relieve them of their obligations on that?

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Old Post 12-12-2008 02:21 PM
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I see in this mournings paper where the bailout died in the Senate when the UAW refused to negociate any wage reductions until 2011. Not to worry, they will find a way to survive till Obama takes office along with the new Dem majority in both houses and then they will be on the gravytrain for good.

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Old Post 12-12-2008 03:23 PM
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rrs
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tough situation, no doubt that many reasons for it, right at the top of the list is terrible leadership in auto industry including union-uaw too... all wanting to get all they could and not looking at what was really happening, spending more $$$ on lobbying to keep from updating-meeting requirements that just doing it... if the industry collapses our and the world economy will be shaken beyond belief, need to do something-not sure what that maybe... the gov't. is giving nearly a trillion to wall st. and the big banks with almost no restrictions, but cannot come to terms with this crisis, the arrogance and ignorance of some senators is beyond comprehension, politcal posturing during this great crisis.. was an uaw member many yrs. ago-can attest to some of the negatives that were union related, but that was long time gone... no doubt the gm ceo should be canned... interesting that some in the senate proposed rank-file workers take a pay cut, but handed a blank check to the fat cats, not sure if throwing good $$$ after bad will do it... do know that job after job is being lost with many more to come, if the auto industry collapses-detriment beyond belief, of course most can't buy a car anyway with no job.. tough times now and tougher to come... now is time for working together and not political posturing, solve problems, prevent in future, action-not rhetoric....

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Old Post 12-12-2008 03:24 PM
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smokey7
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No, I have not driven a Ford lately. I can't afford it.

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Old Post 12-12-2008 03:26 PM
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Bill(Chew)
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My understanding is that GM and Chyrsler are asking for a loan and Ford is only asking for a garrantee of a loan if it becomes neccessary. If they could cut out all of the pork barrel junk out of the bill I bet that it would pass with no problems.

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Old Post 12-12-2008 03:41 PM
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Ray&Luie
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Humm

quote:
Originally posted by Wingman66
How can a government that is about 10 trillion dollars in debt bail out a company? Sounds to me like the government itself needs a bailout. Anybody have china's phone number?



Bill Clinton Does

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Old Post 12-12-2008 03:46 PM
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truly
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosco
I do not want them to burn but...... If they go into bancruptcy they will be able to renegotiate wages with the unions. with being bailed out they will not.

a little primer on the PENSION GUARANTY CORPORATION- as best as i understand the PGC is a govt agency that insures pensions. if your corporation has a pension plan then you pay in a percentage every month/year so if your comapny goes bankrupt then the funds of PGC will take over and pay benefits of retirees. while most of the funds of pgc are generated by the percentages that they take in, if they ever become insolvent themselves then the rest of us [us taxpayers] will have to pick up the tab. so allowing them to go bankrupt just pushes the burden from the automakers to the US citizens/taxpayers. considering that while the average line worker makes $24-28 per hour, the cost to the company is around $70 per hour because the current workers are funding the retirements of others. for this situation to work is predicated on the business being in a growth mode- if you have 100,000 employees you cant have 500,000 retirees being funded by those 100,000. in good times these groups -PGC and the big three needed to put more away in a "lockbox" to be spent later.

so to rosco's point- what good is letting them renegotiate hourly wages from 24-28 down to say 12-15 if the real problem is the additional 42 per hour that needs to go to retirees? and why should retirees who entered into a binding contract between themselves and their employer have to worry for even a moment that their retirement is at risk because of the bad policies of the management of the past employer? and considering that their retirement is guaranteed by the good faith and credit of the US govt [meaning us!] shouldnt we do everything that we can to keep the automakers afloat so they can meet their obligations [so we dont have to for them].

that being said- I am not really sure whether this bailout is a good idea. this is a very complex issue. I am glad that we have a very intelligent, thoughtful man ready to take over the presidency in January.

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Old Post 12-12-2008 03:58 PM
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Larry Atherton
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Registered: Jun 2003
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If the big 3 are allowed to fail, it will be such an added burden to the economy that it will affect every one. It will even affect Jason whether he wants to believe it or not.

Let's see 3 million on unemployment, retirees forced to reenter the work force, added stresses on health care, loss of those 3 million workers salaries to lower GNP even more. Loss of tax revenue increasing the nations debt even more. Those things would endanger a healthy economy ... let alone what we are currently facing.

It is not a question of them or us this decision affects each and every one of us.

I can only speak for myself, but I would feel a whole lot better if some of these CEO were held more accountable for their actions.

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Old Post 12-12-2008 04:35 PM
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Bill Lash
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Registered: Mar 2008
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pension

the government took over my pension plan when the company I worked for went bankrupt in 1992. My plan was fully vested at that time, when I retire I will get less than one third of the original stated pension, they claim this is due to administrative costs. Also, if something happens to me before I can draw my spouse can't get a penny. I took a cut in pay for seven years and still survived. The CEO's need to get on the ball and start taking cuts before the average worker has to. This would prove that they have full intensions of trying to make something work to get the company's back on track.

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