Registered: Aug 2006
Location: USA
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Many hunters are having problems with today's hounds treeing Slick to often. DO you think this is happening because ?


1. The hounds of today have to much Treeing instinct.


2. The hounds of Today have to little Tracking ability.


Why do you think so ?????????

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Jess
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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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Gezz Jess !!!! You forgot "All of the Above" plus brains ..

Why ? the Comp. Hounds being bred today ..

I really don't know if the Current Comp Lines of today could learn what a bobcat is doing.. If they hold the tree without checking I think their would be alot of Empty trees.. We have Jumpers here, they rearly hold, they will jump out of 2-3 trees then head for the rock slides ..

This is what happens to a 14 month old that trys to pull a 28# tom out from under a rock shelf..

The cat jumped out twice before he bayed..

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Once again I got go with my version of C and that is they had a trainer that let them get away with it. I think it probably does have more to do with they have too much tree in them but personally I've said it before I'll take one that I have to back off before one I have to beg to do something.

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Most dogs I've seen that slicked were sorry track dogs. They sure looked good on a tree though. No better than the other one treeing right with him, but the excues was "they are a good tree dog." So it was okay they couldn't track.

MTH - weren't you the one who bred to Kong? Yet the Comp lines don't suit you?

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MTH- is that the same dog you shot when trying to get a bobcat out of the rocks? Looks like the same picture.


As for the tree dogs, I think there are some handlers who don't know what they're doing. I just saw an ad for an english on another board who false tree'd 50% of the time. He wanted 1400 for the cull. I think most houndsmen are afraid to cull and thats the problem with most pup peddlers.

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Is there a Full Moon ???????????

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Jess
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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Redwood Hounds
Most dogs I've seen that slicked were sorry track dogs. They sure looked good on a tree though. No better than the other one treeing right with him, but the excues was "they are a good tree dog." So it was okay they couldn't track.

MTH - weren't you the one who bred to Kong? Yet the Comp lines don't suit you?

---

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Kong is right on the top of the list for Comp line Stud dogs. He may not have been pushed in the hunts, but maybe he can't compete? Or maybe they don't care about comp hunts.

Nothing against the dog, never seen him, never ill. I think he looks nice...

But I hate to tell you, he is a Comp bred dog. Where are all his pups that are in real big game hunters hands?? Where's one? Besides yours which are cross bred bloodhounds, which you bred to him for size and a name only. Money sure didn't matter I bet, for either of you, as he willingly took your money and bred him to whatever you had on your leash. And you sold them all to unknowing buyers for a pretty penny.

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To many dogs are bred to be, "hammer down tree dogs" and not honest tree dogs. Put those dogs in the hands of handlers who encourage them to tree fast and hard because they think its impressive and well ah, slick trees. I also think that most people are afraid to discipline a dog at a tree and get them away from it to go look for the track. Drags and cages and all the encouragement to tree hard doesn't help either. Also, praising a dog before even finding out if anything is actually in a tree encourages the problem. I'll take a light tree dog thats honest every time, just bark enough and stay long enough to get me there.

Dave

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i agree with travis-- its 1 2 and 3 lol

3 is training and discipline - dont let them get away with it -dont train pups with dogs that are good at it -

if coonhides were real valuable , the slick treeing problem would go away - i can remember when a slick tree was considered pretty unusual ---we only acused a dog of treeing slick when it was real obvios --they were given benefit of the doubt when no coon seen--- it wasnt common or expected -- dogs were judged more by hides on a stretcher than they are today


the best dogs ive ever seen did or will slick tree ocasionally


i have seen dogs that never or almost never did--but they werent the best dogs ive seen-

i think the hunters of today have changed more than the dogs have - lol

was bear hunting with a buddy-- nothing in the tree-


he says --- "I AINT NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE "

hes a liar

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Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:

---

Originally posted by hellcat
Many hunters are having problems with today's hounds treeing Slick to often. DO you think this is happening because ?


1. The hounds of today have to much Treeing instinct.


2. The hounds of Today have to little Tracking ability.


Why do you think so ?????????

---

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Jess
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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Last edited by hellcat on 02-25-2008 at 04:21 PM

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I Agree !!! See that was'nt hard at all ....

So Who's Trying to Fix it in their breeding program ??

And what is the Fix ... We have an idea but time and Hard testing will tell ...

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I don't see this problem as much as you guys make it seem. Is it a perceived problem or is it a bigger problem in coon dogs as oppsed to big game dogs. I'll tell you this much. Anyone I hunt with including myself isn't going to 2 or more hours to a tree to find it empty very many times. I would think that would help encourage culling. I've seen it in dogs but mostly in dogs that were field trialed heavy and put into treeing contests. I've walked into plenty of false tree's but its not going to be the norm. I changed my mind. Its the breeding. To many pup peddlers. My only registered dog is a redtick thats swamp rooster top and bottom. I'm not into genetics but her 2nd time out she tree'd ny herself and has been a solid tree dog since. It took almost no encouragement. I've never seen big game dogs that easy to get treeing. Just my thinking.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by hellcat
Sure seems like there are only two choices in this poll, But I guess we could say that it was

1. Poor Breeding
2. Poor Training
3. Poor Conditioning
4. Poor quality of dog feed
5. The terrian is to tough
6. To dry
7. To wet
8. To cold
9. To hot
10. To windy
11. To sunny
12. To cloudy
13. The dogs are to fast
14. The dogs are to Big
15. The dogs are to small
16. The dogs are to slow

I bet I can think of 100s of answers, or excuses. However that would keep the conversation from ever identifying the problems with our hounds or coming up with solutions.
So I guess I will chose either answer

1.The hounds of today have to much Treeing instinct

2.The hounds of Today have to little Tracking ability

I would choose

2.The hounds of Today have to little Tracking ability.

Tracking ability requires Speed, Nose, Brains, Endurance, And the ability for a hound to make a decision is the Game in this Tree or Not. <Imagine that a Choice that a Hound can make> LOL

---

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Eric J
I will have to respectfully disagree with this. Most of them are excuses like you say but the poor training one isnt an excuse in most cases.

I dont know to many people that would make an excuse and say that they trained it wrong.
A. I agree, Many people will not say that they have trained a dog Wrong.

I agree with Travis and Pete. Training has a ton to do with slick treeing.

B. If it were that easy to get dogs to tree to much, Then why would people bother to breed for tree dog's. It would make more
sense to breed for Great track dogs then teach them to tree.

the few coon comps I attended last year made me sick to see how many dogs would slick and everyone would circle the tree instead of handing out a minus.

---

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Jess
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None of the above , it's all the womens fault !

First , the women wanted the right to vote.
Then , the right to work.
Then , to get payed the same as men.
Then , when there was nobody home to dicipline the kids , the parents ( mom ) felt guilty about being gone all day.
They felt so guilty that they taught kids it was OK to make excuses for failure.
Now , those kids are grown up and insted of culling them dogs , they're making excuses for them and they keep breeding them. Hoping , someday to succeed.
And , besides that , the (now) men don't dare tell the (now) wives that they're gonna give up on a $300 pup and cull it and chalk it up as a loss. They're gonna breed it and try and get a few hundred bucks back and keep momma happy ! LOL

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jackbob
You just got my VOTE.

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Jess
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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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I have to say jackbob, you're partially right. I bought a dog from a guy 2 years ago that was "very well started". It would track, with other dogs. It wouldn't tree a lick. I'll never buy a bear dog in january again. Anyhow, it was tough explaining to my wife why I was culling a dog I paid $500 for just 8 months earlier. It needed to be done and I wish there were more people out there who'll do it. I had a guy recently try to sell a started dog to a 17 year old kid who hunts with me. He's still in high school and this guy was peddling junk. After 3 bear trees and this cull didn't even go in on one race the dog went back. The guy got pissed and said "he's just a pup". It was over a year old and had made a few bear trees, allegedly. Anyway I told John not to get anymore dogs from people who are giving away junk. Its hard on a 17 year old to do the job another houndsman should have done.

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Jackbob- I like what you say.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by hellcat
C. I have seen the same thing, Dose this mean that such a large % of competition hunters are Poor trainers ???

---

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The reason I hunt this bloodlines is a quote an old friend gave me,"Your either making dust or your eating it."

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""I've got an idea to fix the false treeing,ad a rule that you only get two circle trees per cast after that its plus or minus.LOL""

why wait-? i vote plus or minus-- from the start - lol

one problem , people may be more likely to see a coon in a tree if they are gonna get minus if they dont


picture anything that could possibly happen--and it will happen on a nite hunt--

ive known a few guys that couldnt see an elephant in a tree if it didnt benefit their dog- lol



how bout 110 for first tree instead of 125 ? --- i think i saw more slick treeing dogs shortly after they changed it to 125 for first tree --

nite hunt rules need to be adjusted occasionally to keep balance in hounds -


and to make up for people breeding to beat the the rules- this is done on purpose sometimes and more often its just a matter of breeding to the dogs that won the hunts

they like to breed to old famous that won the big one -

people dont haul a dog to hunts that they dont think can win -
nitehunts are about best field trial there is-- closest to real hunting ---but i dont think they should be confused with real hunting -



there is no points for a slick tree -when hunting lol

always gonna be a difference between a competition hunter ,pleasure hunter, hide hunter ,

when i coonhunted ,

i used to be a pretty serious hide hunter altho i also pleasure hunted and competition hunted -


i never could seperate it -- it was an insult to be called a hide hunter -

but looking back-,hide hunters do not tolerate slick trees-- lol

i dont coonhunt at all anymore --but still im pretty interested and concerned -- only because it does affect my breed --

if i had my way -- all big competition hunts would be held,




leaves off , and ground froze or covered with snow

or whenever its the toughest in your country - lol

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ok i got one more comment--- i dont have to look too far back on almost anybodys pedigrees to see competition dogs--

it is not a dirty word- it is not an insult -- we all got a picture in our head of what a competition dog is ---and a lot of time that picture isnt what would be ideal dog for big game hunting but theres are some competition coondogs that only need to hunt big game to excel--it aint their fault they live in coon country or just been coonhunted - lol


ive seen big game lines really benefit with infusion of what i would call competition blood-


best way i can explain it is ---dogs were pretty laid back-- and that competition blood put a little more fire in them-- competition hunts sometimes do work--sometimes the dog with most heart and desire wins -- -thats what they were originally designed for-
it was about coldest nose-- fastest on track etc

sometimes its about sharpest handler or best gimmick-and thats just wrong


i havent hunted in a nite hunt in 20 years but at one time i loved it- saw some great dogs - met some great people- also saw the total opposite of that-- i went bear hunting one time what a mistake that was lol ruined me as a coonhunter -lol


i think nite hunts have done more good then harm -they just aint that bad and not all competition dogs are bad----just like not all big game hounds are good at all kinds of game--we have hog cat dogs bear dogs -dry ground- snow ,off the rig ,off the bait , free casted ,on horse back,, just a ton of dogs that can be same breed -- we label them big game hounds but thats pretty vague - lol

- competition dogs--
same deal--

jess said u ask what time it is and somebodies got to tellya how to build a watch- im pretty guilty of that today lol



u cant just label them--lol larry said thats profiling and its wrong lol

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I am with Jackbob and coonscry on this one!!!!! Excuses are just that!!!!!! Either they make a dog or not.... And nobody likes it but my dog food bill is bad enough!!!!!!! And if you can't cowboy up and do what should be done, Your a complete coward passin it on to someone else especially a kid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As to the original question, Don't really know, my lead dog want's to be lookin up so bad it ain't even funny........... But he got some harsh lessons early and never get's encouraged at the tree!!!! Now he very rarely fails, and when he does he probably won't be slick he will be wanderin lookin for it. I got drug to some field trials by a good friend of mine!!! And like hangin out with the people, but will not be disappointed in the least if I never own a dog that wins one. There are a couple dogs in our crew that you take to the line, cut them loose and they do less then a couple hundred yards. Then come back to ya and give the who's stupid now look to ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They know it's fake and don't care to do it. Now you cut them on a real track and they will give ya everything they got in them to give.....Win or lose there is no doubt they will work for it!!!! Think the difference in big game hounds is that they have to produce a actual result rather then coon where they can tree on a den where there was one somewhere within the last 48 hours or get frustrated and just tree and they may or may not get encouraged for it depending entirely on the handler................................................................................. PS. Hellcat it is simply cause they didn't talk to them bad enough that they want to make sure this is the tree it is in......

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people are breeding for these get treed quick dogs from what ive seen ive had the pleasure of getting around our country this last year to some big night hunts and let me tell you the farther south you go the more slick treeing idiots you see,and the less chance of handler taking minus on there dogs. where i'm from at our area club hunts id say 85 to 90% of the handlers will minus there dogs when slick but i think thats do to the fact that most of us are hide hunters first and comp hunters second. We hate to walk into a tree and see nothing in it. but you head south and you have guys that are paid handlers and comp hunting is more poular than just hunting guys are doing anything to get there bonus for finishing ol blue to grand night so in return who ever makes most trees rite or wrong wins cause they aren't going to take minus anyway. if my dog slicks he or she gets the boots but i'll tell you this it doesn't happen often. but then again i'm not winning hunts either, but my frezzer is full of fur. go figure

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Registered: Nov 2007
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Just thinkin it would be funny if nite hunts changed to either it's there or not. Where I am from if the tree is thick enough to hide something, the branches are big enough that you can climb up there till you can see the top or thin enough you can look through them. Minus points if it is slick same scale for what's there. How many have forgotten that these dogs were originally started and always meant to be get the job done hide or meat dogs????????????????????????????????????????????????????
What is your breed standard????? Strangely funny, yes-no????

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