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I had something said to me the other day that got me thinkin on the merits of the breeders out there today....breeders three and four may never hit the top 10 in the reproducers list, but has that become too much the goal for some breeders? A status thing?I guess the question is, "Quality, or Quantity" ....

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Neenah,WI.
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My thinking is 3 and 4 breeders would have a better chance
of getting on the reproducers list because they are breeding
quality females. We've turned down several and have pissed
some people off in the process!

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I am going to with 3 and 4 also. Breeding to outside females is fine as long as you know what you are breeding too. I wish all people would do it that way.. The breeds would be way better off...

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I feel 1 and 2 are concerned more with the list and the almighty dollar, than bettering the breed....if more stud owners would hunt with the females brought to them, I think we would be able to cut the cull factor way down, but thats just me....

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I don't consider a stud dog owner to be a breeder.

Its most generally the owners of the female that determine what crosses are made and to what. They are the ones listed as the breeder on the papers.

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IMO outside females dont have anything to do with anyone being a good breeder except the owner of the Female. The owner of the female is the breeder. Anyway two men can hunt with the same dog, one says "Man What a Fine Hound" The other says, "I wouldnt own that sorry thing".

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I AGREE WITH YOU 100% THE OWNER OF THE FFEMALE IS THE ONE THAT PUTS ALL THE THOUGHT INTO WHAT HE BREED HER TO AND THE STUD OWNER JUST PROVIDES HER A SERVICE ALTO THERE ARE A FEW BREEDERS THAT DO OWN A STUD DOG AND PROVIDE SERVICES TO OTHER FEMALES BUT ARE ALSO NOT SCARED TO BREED THERE FINE FEMALES TO ANOTHER MANS STUD I MOSTLY HAVE FEMALES AND YOU WILL NOT SEE ME BREEDING TO JUST MY DOG I WILL BREED TO OTHER STUDS IF THEY COMPLIMENT MY FEMALE AND IF I BREED A FEMALE OF MINE AND HER PUPS DO NOT TURN OUT SHE WILL NEVER BE BREED AGAIN AND SHE WILL NOT BE SOLD SO THAT SOMEONE EALSE CAN BREED HER I WILL JUST CONTINUE TO HUNT HER WITHOUT BREEDING HER JMO

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IF YOU THINK A REQUIREMENT OF A BREEDER IS TO HAVE A "STUD DOG" THEN YOU OBVIOUSLY NEED TO BE ASKING WHAT MAKES A BREEDER. ONE OF THE MAIN DIFFERENCES OF A TOP REPRODUCING STUD AND AN AVERAGE RUN OF THE MILL STUD IS PROMOTION. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GOOD BREEDER AND A STUD OWNER IS FAR, FAR GREATER.

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IT IS ALSO INTERESTING TO SIT BACK AND WATCH THESE STUD OWNERS THAT HYOE THEIR STUD. WATCH FOR THE ONES THAT SELL THERE STUD. SEE HOW MANY GO BREED THEIR "WORLD CLASS" FEMALES TO HIM ONCE THEY DONT OWN HIM ANYMORE. YOU GET THE IDEA THAT THE STUD ISNT AS GOOD AS THEY HYPED HIM UP TO BE.

STUD DOG MAN = $$$$$

BREEDER = COONDOGS

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I guess I should have clarified in asking which would be considered the best breeder of the four....I wasnt intending it to come across as one of the four being the best kind of breeder....I was just wanting opinions on the four....anyone can breed, it takes knowledge, experience, a lot of research, woods time, and a lot of luck to be a good breeder...whether you own a stud, some females, or both....just because a fellow has a stud, does not mean he is not a good breeder, it is how he comes about making the crosses he does....imo....

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know two guys to be top breeders...one is well known, one isnt, but they are good friends....they dont charge stud fees, only one has a stud, but they both have done their research, continue to do so, they rarely sell pups, they will make a cross they believe will work, and give or place the pups they dont keep...and watch and keep up with how the pups are doing...one of them has done a lot of winning at the biggest hunts....they are breeding for what I believe we all should be, natural ability to locate and tree coon out of families of naturals that are the same way....imo, that should be first and foremost what to look at for breeding material....

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Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Blue Style
I guess I should have clarified in asking which would be considered the best breeder of the four....I wasnt intending it to come across as one of the four being the best kind of breeder....I was just wanting opinions on the four....anyone can breed, it takes knowledge, experience, a lot of research, woods time, and a lot of luck to be a good breeder...whether you own a stud, some females, or both....

---

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I agree...unless a man keeps track of the pups out of the litters he raises and personally hunts with at least a majority of them, he cant know what he is reproducing....I dont claim to be a breeder, as I dont have the experience of raising many pups and hitting timber with many good dogs nationwide....but I do flatter myself to say I do know what a top hound is....I have seen a few go...as well as knowing what I want and knowing how to get it....that is where research and a lot of time in the woods comes in....

Last edited by on 07-20-2007 at 08:07 PM

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I AGREE YOU HAVE TO KEEP UP WITH PUPS TO KNOW WHAT YOUR DOG IS REPRODUCING THAT IS WHY I KNOW WHERE EVERY PUP IS OUT OF CHIZELS FORST LITTER AND 2 LIVE ON 5 MILES FROM ME AND BOTH GUYS HUNT WITH ME REGULARLY AND ONE IS AT WAYNE DANEIL HOUSE AND I TALK TO WAYNE EVER WEEK AND ONE IS IN SOUTH EAST GA THAT MAN KEEPS ME UP ON THAT PUP AND ONE IS IN ELIJAY WITH A GUY THAT WORKS WITH MY BROTHER IN LAW SO I CAN KEEP UP WITH ALL THOSE PUPS AND THAT FEMALE I HAVE BREED NOW I HAVE PUPS OUT OF HER PLACED SO THAT I CAN KEEP UP WITH THEM AND I DO STILL OWN NE OF THEM ALSO AND I WILL PROMISE YOU THAT CHIZEL WILL NEVER BE FOR SALE I HAVE ALREADY TURNED PEOPLE DOWN ON BUYING HIM I DONT CAR IF NONE OF HIS PUPS ARE WORTH ANYTHING AT ALL OR IF HE GETS BREED ALOT BECOUSE I ENJOY HUNTING HIM BECOUSE HE IS A COONDOG AND TO ME THAT IS WHAT MATTERS CHIZEL WILL DIE AT MY HOUSE HOPEFULLY NO TIME SOON THOUGH

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i consider my self a small breeder, i only raise 1 or 2 litters a year. i am very picky what gets breed to my male dogs. i am always trying to find a differant line female. i always keep up with my pups, when i find one i like, i buy it back. i do not breed very many out side females. if a dog can not run & tree i wont breed it. i have a stud dog & i consider my self a breeder. i am only interested in one thing, to make a better coondog !! i dont care about producing 1000 pups. i want to produce a consistant coondog that i feel like it takes to win. i will only sale my pups to people that are serious hunters so most will get an honest chance !! if you think you are going to get rich raising pups, i hate to bust your bubble !! there are very few, i mean very few that make money breeding dogs. just my thoughts take it or leave it.

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to me a real breeder is hunting dogs that they bred a few generations--

quite a few "breeders" i see advertizing are promoting latest fad - hunting dogs they bought or dogs out of dogs that they bought -

nothing wrong with collecting great dogs -- if you can improve on them ,then u are a breeder -- if u start with great dogs and can just maintain that quality i bet you are better than average

one litter of pups doesnt make u a breeder-- lol well ok it does , on paper -

i want to see what u bred a few generations-- show me this generation is better than the last -


dont try to sell me a pup , if u arent keeping one


....anyone can breed, it takes knowledge, experience, a lot of research, woods time, and a lot of luck to be a good breeder...

far as im concerned , you answered your own question right there


if somebodys been lucky for a long time --- its probably not luck lol

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I know my own feelings on this subject, I was just curious what others thought....

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quote:

---

Originally posted by pete
to me a real breeder is hunting dogs that they bred a few generations--

quite a few "breeders" i see advertizing are promoting latest fad - hunting dogs they bought or dogs out of dogs that they bought -

nothing wrong with collecting great dogs -- if you can improve on them ,then u are a breeder -- if u start with great dogs and can just maintain that quality i bet you are better than average

one litter of pups doesnt make u a breeder-- lol well ok it does , on paper -

i want to see what u bred a few generations-- show me this generation is better than the last -


dont try to sell me a pup , if u arent keeping one


....anyone can breed, it takes knowledge, experience, a lot of research, woods time, and a lot of luck to be a good breeder...

far as im concerned , you answered your own question right there


if somebodys been lucky for a long time --- its probably not luck lol

---

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To me the deffinition of a breeder is someone who carry's on with generation's of hounds that continue to excell. Also "Keep's" & hunt's their own stuff & does their best to continually search for the rite link's that will move their hound's in a forward direction. There are a lot around that have a male dog & raise puppy's but don't have any to show for their effort's.

I respect the people that do it that way way more than the one's with a one hit wonder & like someone else above said,sell their hi-falutin stud dog & then not use them anymore.Just go buy another & claim them to be just the ticket.

A true "Breeder" don't sell off the good one's & also don't mass produce puppy's in the name of the all mighty dollar.

I know I have been critisized because there are only so many pup's out of a certain dog but the truth of the matter is when I raise a litter it is for myself & "IF" there are extra's then I do my best to place them in the hand's of good hunters so they can have an honest chance.

I've alway's preached that I have my hound's for my own use & anyone else at my convenience & discretion.

Have sold very few puppy's over the year's because that's just my gig,as a breeder. The only way you truly get a grip on what you have is to work with them from day one to fully understand their strong point's as well as the weak one's.

By keepin both eye's open & bein 100% honest with what you have you stand a whole lot better chance of improving toward's your goal's.

"OUR" replacement's are raised here for the most part yet not blind to the fact that there are other's out there that can contribute in the direction we want to go but in the same tokin I am extremely critical of outside stuff & you have to be. Can take year's to get to what you want & easy to loose it with haphazard mating's & lack of deep pedigree researchin.

Way more to this breeder thing than just treein coon for us. When I see a hound I pick them apart from toe nail to the tip's of their tail's before I even know how they are in the timber.

It take's a long time & a pile of dedication to get the trait's you want showin up consistently.

The one's that do that have my utmost respect. In the same tokin we all start somewhere it's just what you do from then on that matter's the most & to you & you only if your open minded & objective.

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Registered: Jun 2003
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There have been some excellent thoughts posted on this thread. Two Toes, you really nailed it.

One thing I think a real breeder must be able to do is be honest in his evaluation of what he produces. If you get sentimental about a pup just because it happens to be out of your old favorite, and you overlook big holes and plug it in your program anyway, you are going to lose ground quick.

A man has to first know what he is after, and then be able to be objective and willing to cull ruthlessly in his pursuit of producing what he wants consistently.

Two of the guys who have helped me and taught me the most of what little bit I know are Gary Uchtman and Austin Cox, and both of those men are hard cullers. They have for years bred for a certain "type" of hound and haven't chased the fad stud dogs or flavor-of-the-month winners. As a result, they have done a good job of putting out the kind of dogs they want.

They have a little different preferences, and between the two, I find a happy medium of what I am looking for in a hound.

Consistency of vision is about as important a trait in a breeder as anything--determining what you want in a hound, and staying focused on that, not just on raising puppies out of whatever is hot at the time or will sell fast.

These guys are the ones who will stand the test of time.

I think it is signifigant that Russ is producing dogs that look and operate like the ones he won big with back in the 80's....

And if you go to Gary Uchtman's place, you are going to see hounds that look and operate like the old stuff that his dad had way back when.

Consistency of vision. Not that there aren't improvements to be made, but I appreciate consistency.

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I dont show much but should conformation and the breed standard be involved with this "Good Breeder"... that is if he is keeping a pure breed line!

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Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

The "true" breeders I have always admired are the ones that hunt what they produce and produce what they hunt. The first thing I look at when someone wants to be seen as a breeder is "who produced their dog and whose kennel was it born in?" Don't trust a mechanic whose truck won't run, lol. Good breeders don't go out and buy their breeding stock, their breeding stock was born in their kennel and their dogs are still of quality to compare favorably with anything out there. Of course, everyone starts out with someone else's stock, but after that first generation or two, a true breeder ought to be living in what he's building.

They control 100% the females they breed and can pretty much choose any male they want. They choose males based on what they can produce when bred to a given female. Pedigrees, titles, hunt wins, magazine ads, internet talk, and who owns them are all considered, but not of highest importance.

They work to get pups in good hands, including their own. They will get their own hands dirty and mess with some pups to get them going. If they start a pup or two from every litter, then they can see the differences in these pups from a young age. That is a "must know" for future crosses.

They will stand behind pups after the sale and work to get pups moved to better hands when necessary and suit those that are really trying and capable of making coondogs out of pups. They won't sell the cheapest pups out there. What they produce will increase in value as it ages, provided it is hunted. They will avoid poor quality trainers/coonhunters and flashes-in-the-pan.

They will get out there and put their stock and their pups in competition and before the coonhunting public, win, lose or draw.

I have other observations, but not enough time to type them.

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for all the input, was afraid it was gonna get ugly, but it didnt....I have found 3 bloodlines that hold all the keys I want, now I just have to plug it in and see how they work togethe...they are all proven lines, and two of them are very old lines that have been linebred for generations......two of the lines Im workin on havent been used together much, so it will be trial and error....so far I havent had to cull any pups, have had good luck....the ones that didnt work out were culled through accident of one fashion or another...I am not planning on breeding very much, or should I say very often, as I want to know full well what I have produced before I take it another generation....wish me luck...

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This should be posted on every board.
Jess

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I have failed to find a line that is as well balanced as I feel they could be....that is my goal....if others want to try them out, well good deal, if they happen to win in the hunts, well good deal, and if I do accomplish what I am working for, they should be able to win anywhere....now only time will tell....I also have a few very knowledgeable houndsmen I go to for help of one sort or another, they know who they are and I want to thank them for their continued input and advise....

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