Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

Is there more UKC beagles that are also AKC now than in the past?

If so, how do you see the running speed of the AKC dogs compared to those that were only grade and became UKC ?

In other words has the speed slowed down due to their influence or speeded up?

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Coshocton Ohio
Posts: 752

I run only AKC / UKC / NKC reg. dogs. I run with UKC/ NKC only a lot of the time. there is fast and mediam speed as well as slow dogs in all the regestry`s. Try some of the haunted hill, Branko, or larsen breeding there or others allso if you want to see speed. Its all in what the owner likes.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: The Great State of Michigan
Posts: 2487

Good answer Roy. Registries don't dictate speed, individual breeders do. Regionally dogs are always faster or slower regardless of registry.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

It seems to me when ARHA Little Pack and UKC first started it was really a way, the only way, for grade dogs to register, trial and their growth was fast as the dogs that ran in them and trial numbers were up high. Ordinary hunters loved it and were the majority.

Now that AKC dogs are participating more, the trial numbers are down and the dogs running slower.

Is it causing the old grade dog hunter with dogs that are his breed and not well known, or even maybe a 1/4 fiest to quit?

Saw enough of the looking down on fast grade dogs and the trials get slower and slower (excuse me, CLOSER and CLOSER) or (more ACCURATE), due to the AKC judge influence in the 40-50's.

Be a shame to happen again !

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Calhoun KY
Posts: 995

Hey John you Know this is why I trial mostly in UKC and NKC they will allow a Dog to run...
I like Run to catch style of hounds that have the Control they need to get the Job Done Sure they may be to Rough for the AKC Style Judges BUT this is why i went away from AKC When Was the Last time you Saw a Good Ol RABBIT Dog win a AKC trial?????
All our Hounds are registered AKC/UKC/NKC
IN my limited Experience have not Seen any Slowdown in UKC dogs they are getting a lot better at Picking up the rough stuff but if the hound skirts a little or Bumps for the front and can maintain it More power to it.....
I know a lot of Pure Gun Hunters that Will purchase a UKC hound over a AKC hound just because of this..
In MY Personal Opinion I think that the biggest reason You dont see as many Grade Dog or pure Gun hunters participating in as many hunts is Due to all the political BS goin on...
I have seen where it can get BAD at times.
That and you just Dont Hear about as many Grade Dogs being out there as thier used to be.
OR there just aint as many GOOD PLAIN OL Rabbit Dogs like thier used to be......

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 651

This may step on some toes but as far as im concerned dogs that are part fiest or whatever dont belong in any registry. Im sure there have been and will be some registered because they may look like a beagle but in my opinion they still dont belong. There's a difference between raising "grade" beagles and raising crossbred dogs.
I only keep beagles that are AKC registered and those that are not litter registered UKC are single registered UKC when I run them in a trial. I dont think AKC registered beagles are better or worse its just that I like to be able to run them in any registry I wish.
As for the AKC dogs in your area being slow..... I think that depends on what part of the US you are in and what federation hunts you are going to. AKC has one rule book but each federation has a different opinion of the rule book when they read it. Go to a MidWest trial sometime and see what you think. No matter what registry or format you run in all rulebooks seem to be written to allow a judge to have to make a judgement call and the judges in every registry or format will vary on how strict they are with each "demerit" depending on what part of the US they are located. JMO!

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

Stony
When the beagle trials went to faster dogs like the ARHA Little Pack and UKC its amazing how fast the Walkie Talkie lines of dogs went from slow to the faster speed.
Way too fast.
There was some fiest for more hunt and grade dogs from behind the barn added for sure.
Look at some of the AKC dogs today and those of yesteryear and those long bodies of the Brace AKC that made the transition.
See any short ears, knobby heads and pointy noses and the tell tale mouths?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: The Great State of Michigan
Posts: 2487

John,

Just where in Alabama are you getting your information?

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

Todd
Not just in Alabama but at the trials I have attended with dogs from all over.
A lot of them have the stamp on them. Go around and look close at the dogs tied to the chains and I don't believe in most cases you can tell the AKC registered ones from the 1/4 fiest or full grade dogs. Who changed to look like who???

The exception is the ones whose background is show dogs I see standing in the magazines. I don't think they have the mix and look the same as show dogs did years ago, color and all.
They were pretty medium speed to and occasional medium fast and you can see why. Nothing wrong, but dogs moving straight up and prissy gaited cannot run as fast as a fast built dog chasing after a ball, much less a rabbit.
I just hope the AKC influence does not cause dogs to go in the direction they did in the past.

AKC looks down on other registries and many AKC folks and judges feel the same. More prestigious don't you know!!!

Trial folks will breed for whatever wins and I don't blame them if they love to trial. Everyone wants to bring home a trophy every once in a while.
The more AKC influence the slower the dogs that will win. So. that will be the way dogs will be bred to trial. Seen it before!
Don't let it happen to NKC or UKC!

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: WEST VIRGINIA
Posts: 18

OK NOBODY IN ANY REGISTRY LOOKS DOWN ON ANOTHER. THE TOP MEN AND WOMEN OF ALL REGISTRIES CARE ABOUT ONE THING THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR BILL. AND HOW TO KEEP YOU GIVING IT TO THEM. THANKS...LEE

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: beckley,wv
Posts: 85

i agree with the guy who said to look in the midwest if you are looking for speed with still having pretty good line control...a little bit...emphasis on LITTLE bit fast for me...but as Todd stated..in any registry...depending on where you run you will find flat medium med-fast or all out fast dogs....depending on what pppl like to rabbit hunt with...i like pretty good foot..enough to push a rabbit out of a briar patch, but don't care for the hounds that "push for the front"..i breed what i like to hunt with....if it happens to do well in a trial so be it..if not..i still have what i like to hunt with. i've ran AKC dogs for years now and have had less than medium all the way up as fast as a dog can run and hold a line...which is pretty fast...i liked all of them at the time and at this moment like a dog that bumps the high side of medium for the simple reason that they seem to show most of the line..as i do enjoy watching the hound work...and still have enough foot to push a rabbit without being so fast that they push him to ground . that is about the only thing that made me slow mine down just a bit...just the fact that my faster hounds would push a rabbit to ground for fear of being caught.....i've had some pretty fast dogs that still ran a nice line..and yes..they were AKC registered...but i still disagree with any hound that pushes for the front..if it happens to have the front or get the front out of a check or when another hound oversteps or is just naturally faster thats fine....but i've never...NEVER seen any thing good out of 2-3 hounds "pushing" for the front...almost always a breakdown in the chase. but thats just my opinion...others may love this type hound and if so then they should run what they like....the thing that brought on the "BRACE" downfall of a hunting beagle was breeding for a type of trial so that "you can bring home a trophy" every once on a while..the brace trials brought them down too slow to be use in a hunting situation...don't be fooled into thinking that they can't be bred to push so hard that they can't hold a line long enough to circle a rabbit either..my 2 cents....hope i didn't step on anyones toes.

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 155

I've seen an awful lot of the great dogs do well in all the registries and Canada. I believe the ones who are breeding those hounds are trying to breed the best rabbit dog not to just succeed in one registry or trials only but hunting as well.

Speed in the UKC has some bearing on the outcome but it is only one aspect that can change how a cast or a hunt turns out.

I've never seen my dog slowdown because the dog behind him was an AKC dog, maybe cause he's AKC registered as well, he figures he can go as fast as he wants.

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: beckley,wv
Posts: 85

i think some of what is happening was referred to above with the judges holding a higher standard and letting the hounds get away with less....which should be the natural progression of the program to continue to improve the accuracy while maintaining good footspeed...kudos to the judges who are enforcing it. and i think what registry the dog is registered under is irrevelant...i've seen em rough as they make em that were AKC only, and saw grade dogs that sould run the same rabbit for hours...all any pedigree helps with is helping to guess the odds of what your pups may turn out like...and all ANY pup is a CHANCE..and all hounds are judged by using the same set of rules and by the same judge....regardless of whether they are AKC or not....may the best dog win....no matter what. and try to remember...when you run your hound in a trial..in essence you are asking the judge for his/her opinion of your dog...so i'm guessing that most judges are kinda "raising the bar" which is at it should be..as i would hope that the champions that finish 10 years from now are a better quality dog than what finished in the early years of the program..and as far as seeing an honest to GOD rabbit dog win a trial...i've saw several. and hope to see more and more over the years....may the cream always rise to the top...i think that as time progresses you'll see more and more hounds be able to compete in HB and PP formats....and i'll for one be happy about it...there are plenty that can do it now, and those are the studs that i like best.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Fresno Ohio
Posts: 2212

Alabama John I disagree with the AKC show hound breeding being slow. As a matter of fact we have seen just the opposite.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

Dave
I don't think you can find a better looking rabbit dog than that Black Bow.
Congratulations!
You're a talented writer too.

In this months Americn beagler those dogs in High Point NC all look great.
Sure wouldn't have wanted to have to pick out a winner from that bunch.

My only real serious point is "Watch out for the AKC talk, key words. If you find the dogs winning under the judges that come from AKC are a little slower, closer, accurate, etc. watch out". It COULD be the beginning.
Watch for phrases from Judges like Bobbys above " the judges are holding dogs to a higher standard and letting them get away with less" "That will be the natural progression" That's scary.
That is the same words and phrases that started the downward spiral from rabbit dogs to Brace hobby dogs. IMPOSSIBLE? AKC folks didn't think it was possible back then either!

Sure wish UKC was down here. I've got a fast one or two to enter that have sorta short ears. Sure wouldn't want their picture taken.

Notice the thread above mine. Todds "Things are getting a little boring". Heck, ya'll are playing childrens word games!
Thought this would maybe help him out some by throwing in a phase or two to get something started, but you folks are too nice.

Where's 'ol Redtick or Rebel?.

Last edited by Alabama John on 06-21-2007 at 02:17 PM

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Fresno Ohio
Posts: 2212

Thanks for the compliments. I kinda like ole Black Bow too.
I understand what your saying and dont be afraid to make a trip up to Ohio for some good running sometime!!!!

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

Thanks for the invite, never been to Ohio.

We seldom run cottontails but run Big canecutters that is more like running a fox. A dog built to run can really stretch out.

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: OHIO
Posts: 329

Regardless of registry a correctly structured dog will have the advantage of both speed and accuracy. Smelling the turn AND having the physical abillity to make the turn will give more consistent progress. Making a turn correctly at a good rate of speed is the advantage of correct structure and balance. Big difference between correct structure and what some consider a "pretty dog" or a "prissy gaited" dog. The key is to know and understand the difference and how CORRECT STRUCTURE contributes to performance in our hounds. Dan

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: beckley,wv
Posts: 85

please someone explain to me why a more accurate dog has to be slower than his packmates...i never mentioned anything about speed in relation to the judging....only that that the judges might be holding dogs to a higher standard now.....and in ANY program the object should be to better the breed.....i would hope that beagles in all speeds and registries would be continue to be better and better as time progresses...you might be kinda surprised at how strong of a dog i DO run. just a little bit too slow for Jessamine county...and if thats too slow to hunt with...i'll quit today. and as far as looks..if you like the "shorter eared variety" then more the power to you...but UKC wants their beagles to look like beagles too...they do have a breed standard.

Last edited by Bobby Davis on 06-22-2007 at 10:41 AM

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

Dan you're right.
And conversely, if a dog has the ability to turn and run effortlessly for long time, it has the right conformation.
In my opinion, the perfect conformation for a Beagle would be one built like a under 15 inch Fox since it can run ahead of a pack of much bigger, leggier foxhounds for hours. Quick as a cat. Wonder how one would do on the bench?

Bobby
You do not have the ultimate accurate dogs and AKC folks have already taken your type and breed them to be more accurate than yours and have improved the Breed in doing so in their and AKC's eyes. Get some old Hounds and Hunting magazines and read the big named stud ads of dogs that are well known and show up in papers of dogs today.

I highly recommend you go to a Brace trial and see what I mean. Great folks that can talk breeding for accuracy.
They have trials all summer as the heat won't bother them as much as it would your or my dogs.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Grafton, WV
Posts: 376

Here is a guy that breeds for accuracy. I think these may be brace hounds. They may be really slow, but hey he didn't have any break downs...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...066020347160837

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: beckley,wv
Posts: 85

i couldn't agree with you more..i've been to several brace trials and they are completely useless as a hunting hound.....and for the record..i'm not interested in a hound that shows every place a rabbit put his foot...but please attend a couple midwest assn trials or some up in NY and NJ where my type dogs would fit a little better before you pass judgement on those of us that have dual registered dogs...i gaurantee you'll find that they are hardly walkie talkies...they are competent rabbit dogs...and most if not all will fit into one or more of UKC's formats...and please don't think that because i like to preach a little line control i'm more interested in the rabbit track than the rabbit. i've judged AKC trials back in the 90's where the dogs were so fast and competive that they had a breakdown every 90 seconds or so until i picked up the rough hounds....so please don't think i'm all about slowing them down per say..i just want to see a dogs nose and feet connected....by you guessed it...a BRAIN....a beagle is scent hound....and even the faster dogs you prefer can only stay attached to the track and run the track so fast before they start running over at EVERY turn the rabbit makes...the hounds that continuously run over this while trying to "push for the front" while his packmates are turning the rabbit while running just behind him...are disrupting a good rabbit chase....no matter if you are running medium speed, medium fast or fast hounds..these dogs are ROUGH...some ppl like em..some ppl don't.....i DON"T....they don't have enough sense to not overrun their nose or scent conditions..all they care about is getting in front of the next hound...believe me...you and i are on the same team .what those other guys are telling you is 100% correct...if the midwest doesn't run enough dog for you..you might think about trying a greyhound....the midwest association produces some very nice fast speed hounds that still maintain line control...the northeast runs just little less foot..which is what i prefer. and in any speed hound..even when i ran a faster dog i never could stand a dog that just had to have the front. as for the brace folks...while i don't have any use for their style beagles as hunting hound...if that is what floats their boat..more the power to them...but please don't think that all AKC hounds walk em and talk em....i think that the UKC program is a good one that brings a beagle trial to more ppl than the AKC program, and having more than one format will accomadate all the different style of hunting beagles that different people use and like. ...i hope you have some good luck forming a UKC club in your area.

Last edited by Bobby Davis on 06-22-2007 at 06:22 PM

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Coshocton Ohio
Posts: 752

I don`t like bashing any regestry. There is a forum out there that will most likly fit any style beagle. So run what you like and choose the format that he or she can compete in with out looking totolly out of place. I think you will injoy your trials a lot more if you do this.

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: beckley,wv
Posts: 85

you said it all Roy.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

This is just Front porch of the general store talk!
Not meaning to cause a fuss, well maybe a little one, but too hot to run dogs and we sure need rain. At least we have not have any challenges to run dog for dog like the store folks do.

Cannonball
Love that lead dogs mouth, (machine gun chop). belongs to a fine Beagle person too.

Bobby
I know you know what a good dog is.
Had to use what you said to make my warning.
As iI said, I saw good AKC lines of dogs that could run a rabbit slowly get slower and slower strickly due to Judges preferences and don't want that to happen to any others.

You must run cottontails or small rabbits that dart around a lot like our baby rabbits and I'm sure we all would like dogs like yours to be able to run them with few loses.
We call ours off baby rabbits and move on. Our older dogs will not fool with them at all.

That's what I don't like about NKC Little Pack, must have a 15 second loss to get any points for getting the check while a dog that doesn't have many checks and recovers those he does have in short order by being ACCURATE doesn't get a point. Promotes a dog that creates errors for 15 seconds and then recovers. I truly believe some of them can count.

You must have not run Canecutters in open swamps where loses are few. No time to slip, turn and dodge or will get caught. Rabbit running ears back and straight.
New meaning to running the track vs. working the track huh
.

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