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Single reg, crossbred, whatever you prefer to call them, some of them have made a name for themselves as winners, especially in PKC. Has any of them, male or female, ever proven itself as a reproducer?

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Single reg, crossbred, whatever you prefer to call them, some of them have made a name for themselves as winners, especially in PKC. Has any of them, male or female, ever proven itself as a reproducer?

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Well, I didn't know of many crossbred hounds records until we recently had an "oops" litter between a walker and an english. Turns out, there are MANY notable crossbred hounds that have been singled registered and gone on to produce some pretty nice offspring. They are even some in the Performance Program.

Most of the ones I have seen of coarse have been between the english x walker breeds (as that is what we currently have, that's what I looked at) and it apparhently happens more then I thought, and on purpose too!

I did find one really interesting one out lately in the redbone breed, though it is for some reason not mentionable... why not? Call an ace an ace and a spade a spade I say!

Also, I believe if you do a search on the UKC posts you'll find that the dog on the cover of the either December 2007 or January 2008 Bloodlines was a single registered english male performance sire.

It happens between all the breeds. And, just like a purebred litter, some turn out great, others not so great...

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The English breed really is a crossbreed breed. (But really, so are the others).

Aside from the Speck dogs (already mentioned), here are a few others in the English breed :

Beshears Blue Boy II (Junior) : A crossbred hound.
Darons Blue Reb (Lumis) : A crossbred hound.
Boyds Little Joe : A grade dog that was single registered.

Pretty much all of the English breed is bred on these dogs. In a lot of cases, you'll see linebreeding on these dogs.

When you linebreed on a crossbreed, what do you get? A crossbred hound? If you linebreed them for several generations, do you get closer to having a purebred crossbred?

Is a bawlmouth dog x a chopmouth dog a crossbred? If you can't answer that question without seeing the papers, you're not talking about breeding dogs. You're just trying to match paperwork up.

Which is more crossbred?

(1) Two dogs of the same breed (paper wise) that are totally different in style and traits?

or

(2) Two dogs of different breeds (paper wise) that are very similar in style and traits?

What determines crossbreeding? Genes or papers?

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I bet someone will make a post about "Hybrid Vigor". Just a hunch.

I don't see any reason why linebreeding on a crossbred dog or litter wouldn't reproduce as well linebreeding within a purebred line.

but if your question is (for example) has a dog like Tenn Hardrock or will Get Ahead Lil Red reproduce dogs of similar caliber as themselves? I can't think of any examples that they have. But taking one of them and linebreeding them onto something similar to one side of they're pedigree, I can't see why it wouldn't work. Not much different that taking a dog from a total outcross and linebreeding it back to something similar to its one side.

Other than some of the English studs mentioned, I can't think of any other than Halfbreed Jessi.

I think Halfbreed Jessi was an above average reproducer. 3/4 Ton and the Trouble dog come to mind. I don't know for fact, but I heard Jessi was bred back to her sire or 1/2 brother and that cross didn't work as well the Walker studs she was bred to. Just what I had heard, so that kind of shoots my theory down.

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People would be really suprised to find out how many of their pure breed hounds really weren't pure breed. Years ago before DNA and high priced puppies, people breed for natural instinct and hunting abilities. If all the cards were on the table so to speak, alot of our foundation hounds of yesterday were not PURE BREED. Save the trouble of fixing paper work on pups and single registering dogs and start a crossbred registry. Or allow grade dogs to be hunted until they earn a hunt title and then they can be single registered. Either way is simple and wouldn't be hard to do. Shoot, if UKC wants to give me a job, I'll take it on. Would love to see more pure coondogs instead of just pure bred dogs. It is not papers that make a dog a coondog anyway. It is the abilities of the dog that makes it a coondog.........................

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If Im not mistaken Hillbilly Mack was a UKC single reg Walker Hound, that was off a walker stud and a black & tan gyp. He was just a single reg. walker dog with no titles when he won the UKC World Championship. I heard he threw some pretty nice hounds.

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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.....I believe that Hardtime Speck was a Walker that was single registered English. We were on our way home from the Grand American back in the early to mid Eighties. I was with a couple of well known Walker men at the time and we stopped at a place in North Carolina to watch a certain Walker go. I'm almost positive that one of these well known Walker men said, "that's a littermate to Hardtime Speck."

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IF I'AM NOT MISTAKEN AGAIN I BELIEVE ALL OF THEM CAME FROM ENGLISH FOX HOUNDS... HAVE YOU EVER SAW A PICTURE OF A OLD TIME ENGLISH FOX HOUND PACK...BLACK & TANS,HI TANS ,REDS , BLUES , OPEN TICKED , TRI COLORED AND EVEN AFEW LEOPARDS.... LOTS OF THESE PACKS WERE REGISTERED AS WALKERS.. THEN CAME ALONG REGISTERED " WALKERS TREEING.". ANYONE REMEMBER THAT...????????

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Thats correct HARDTIME SPECK was a Walker Hound transferred to the English breed when UKC would let folks do that. Speck's English offspring had half Walker blood and half English blood flowing threw their veins. Up until the 1940's Treeing Walkers ,American Blueticks and English were all recognized as one breed.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
Single reg, crossbred, whatever you prefer to call them, some of them have made a name for themselves as winners, especially in PKC. Has any of them, male or female, ever proven itself as a reproducer?

---

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Vanzant's Sam "Hybrid" World Champ.

It seams by looking thru the English Ped's their are Spikes at each Total/Mostly OutCross that runs aprox 3-4 Generations thru the Protegee ..

Plus Their were other Spikes in Abilties when the Protegees of Vanzant's Sam were Crossed on Speck's . Thus another "Cross Breeding" or Hybrid Vigor Scenario ..

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Beechy Creek Zipcode was a single registered dog wasn't he?

Yup,
http://www.neuseriverenglishkennels...s/zipcodead.pdf

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wingpatch
IF I'AM NOT MISTAKEN AGAIN I BELIEVE ALL OF THEM CAME FROM ENGLISH FOX HOUNDS... HAVE YOU EVER SAW A PICTURE OF A OLD TIME ENGLISH FOX HOUND PACK...BLACK & TANS,HI TANS ,REDS , BLUES , OPEN TICKED , TRI COLORED AND EVEN AFEW LEOPARDS.... LOTS OF THESE PACKS WERE REGISTERED AS WALKERS.. THEN CAME ALONG REGISTERED " WALKERS TREEING.". ANYONE REMEMBER THAT...????????

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I think a better question might be, "Do crossbreds, on average, produce better than purebreds, on average?" I think the answer to that is "no".

There are always exceptions and a crossbred here or there that does reproduce doesn't change the the average of what crossbreds usually produce.

One reason for that, imo, is that they are often the result of accidental or poorly thought out crosses. While their genes clicked to make a coondog, they are such a variety and disarray that they can't line up in their pups to do the same thing again. Thats about as deep as I better get into genetics....

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I think the idea of crossbreeds in American breed coonhounds is basically nonexistant.

The whole reason for selecting for color is so simple it is silly. Early breeders selected for color because it is the easiest trait to fix.

All the breeds have similiar if not identical beginnings from the same gene pool. All breeds have many of very similiar strains within each breed for such traits as size and build. I believe ( and I may be wrong) but once we start to really understand the dog genome that our breeds with maybe the exception of the plott hound are going to be so similiar that statistically they will be nearly identical.

The meaning of crossbred is actually different than the way coon hound fanciers use it. A true crossbreed would be like a beagle and a lab. Where each breed has many different traits. This is the type of crossbreed that yield hybrid vigor.

To answer your question Jim, yes there have been many through the years. It only makes since that the English breed is our best example because they have the widest color allowances within the breed.

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As has been said over and over and over on here, the female contributes a ton to a good cross. I would have a hard time believeing that a cross bred hound or whatever would have many owners of top bred and performing females coming to his house no matter how good he is.

Maybe I am wrong.

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TIMBER CHOPPER HAD FEMALES FROM ALL BREEDS COMMING TO HIM. THE FEMALE= 70 to 80% of offspring.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Dillard
If Im not mistaken Hillbilly Mack was a UKC single reg Walker Hound, that was off a walker stud and a black & tan gyp. He was just a single reg. walker dog with no titles when he won the UKC World Championship. I heard he threw some pretty nice hounds.

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Well,

If you look at the pictures from 50-100 years ago, the hounds were MUCH different then they are today! And I don't think we have IMPROVED the breeds at all...

Hounds used to be pretty consistant in size and shape, much larger I think then todays hound and not nearly as dainty. There was no mistaking a hound when you looked at them then, they most resembled todays bloodhounds. VERY houndy. Though they were very consistant in size and characteristics their colors varied widely. It wasn't until the seperate "Breeds" began branching off that the breed characteristics began to change.

I think it's sad that todays hounds don't resemble their ancestors. Last time we took a redbone to the vet a woman told me how pretty my chocolate lab was! And she is a beautiful example of redbone. Not at all off breed type... but the general public considers a "hound dog" to be all ears and loose skin. Not todays standard of compact chest, lanky legs and tiny cat feet. JMO.

So, it does make me wonder what those original breed members were thinking seperating hounds into seperate breeds based pretty much on color at the time...

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think it's sad that todays hounds don't resemble their ancestors. Last time we took a redbone to the vet a woman told me how pretty my chocolate lab was! And she is a beautiful example of redbone. Not at all off breed type... but the general public considers a "hound dog" to be all ears and loose skin. Not todays standard of compact chest, lanky legs and tiny cat feet. JMO.


not tryin to bash show people but if you look at the above traits isnt that wut it takes to win a show..i dont show but i do think that has somethin to do with it..who wants an old droopy lookin hound to win a show..not tryin to change the post

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quote:

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Originally posted by anscox
Well,

If you look at the pictures from 50-100 years ago, the hounds were MUCH different then they are today! And I don't think we have IMPROVED the breeds at all...

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Very few of the old pictures will show a dog on a tree, those that are smart eoungh to chew gum and walk wont need to wonder why.

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hybred vigor doesn't have to be crossing breeds it can be grossing strains within a breed. as far as crossbreeding some spectacular hounds have been produced, however a large part of these crossbreeds didn't produce pups that were as good as they were due to opening up the gene pool resulting in unpredictable outcome if you notice most not all top dogs are linebred in order to produce predictable outcome as the gene pool is made smaller it is easier to produce pup that are more predictable. hounds like speck boydslittle joe and other crossbreeds or unknown bred dogs worked better when they were used as line breeding wasn't used as much when they were breeding them by selecting the best of these crosses then breeding them tight there trates were set to produce more of the same.

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Question, How do you get something Pure from something that never was Pure!! Sooner or later they all are the results of Cross Breeding!!

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world ch quick dog i think is single reg.

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