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Rule question

What UKC rule covers scoring a coon that is in a tree next to the tree your dog is treed on? I looked in the rulebook but I couldn't find one. With all of the young lawyers hunting these days, they want to see a rule #.

Rule 3 b
The way I take it is as long as the coon is seen other than in the tree dog is treed on it receives plus points. And Of corse would receive plus if coon was in tree dog is on

depends

Is the dog looking directly at the coon or not. Did you tell the judge before the cast start " My dog will tree down wind of coon and be looking directly at it." Makes finding the coon much easier also.

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I have my best hound now. Cricket out of Moonlight/Outlaw Mac by Feldmans Roxie,

If the coon is not in the tree your dog is treeing on you can’t count it.

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Pine Hill Kennels
Loyd McIntire

quote:

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Originally posted by coondogedog
If the coon is not in the tree your dog is treeing on you can’t count it.

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If there is a vine or substantial limb connecting the two trees it is to be counted as a single tree for scoring. Meaning the coon has to have an obvious path (not a possible but unlikely path) from the tree the dogs are on to the tree where the coon is.

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Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592

Where is the rule that states that?

Hunting/non-hunting judges
Hunting judges 2a

I feel sure at one time a “definition” of what was acceptable criteria to score 2 trees as one or if the coon could be scored in a tree beside it. I can not find it anywhere at this time. I am waiting for Trevor to let us know 😎. As we can see by the replies that many people have a “opinion” of what is acceptable to score.

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Get deep or Get Beat!

Apparently this is an altogether "judgement" call. Every handler can have their own opinion without any guidance from UKC and the majority rules. That is unless someone can find where this is addressed somewhere in the Advisor.

Allen Gingerich's article from November 2017

Lame Cross Out Excuses
Q: Judges in this area are circling obviously slick trees because of handlers who say the coon could have crossed out. This is getting to be a big problem here and I would like to hear UKC’s ruling on this.

A: I believe that one of the most frequent abuses in the scoring of coonhounds in a Nite Hunt occurs when Judges let handlers convince them that a coon could have crossed over to another tree from an obviously “slick” tree. I have either coon hunted too many years for my own good or I am like the guy from Missouri (you gotta show me) because I do not believe that coon climb the trunk of one tree to get into another tree unless the branches are obviously entwined or there are vines creating a natural path for the coon to follow. I have seen coon reach out and take hold of limbs and pull themselves across but that was when I was in the tree with them, attempting to shake them from their perch. Otherwise, coon will stay put, moving only when frightened by shaking vines, shooting or squalling. I once had a handler to tell me that coon climb smaller bushes and ride them over into den trees. Sounds like fun to me, but again, I will have to be shown.

I have also heard of the “escape route” for saving dogs from minus points. Handlers maintain that a tree should be circled because there is an obvious escape route in the form of a limb on the backside of the tree that touches the ground, or perhaps a log across a stream or some other conveyance that allowed the coon to fool the dog and escape. These handlers maintain that since the coon climbed the tree and the dog is none the wiser, the points should be circled. Other scenarios reveal dogs that have received plus points when a coon was seen several trees down a fence row from where the dog was treeing. The handler paints a scene of the coon crossing from tree to tree in a style that would turn a Tarzan scriptwriter green with envy and, believe it or not, some Judges buy it.

The top of the scorecard says, “Honor Rules.” The framers of the Nite Hunt rules were coon hunters of much experience. The Rules Committee members, the same. There is a thread running through the rules that assumes the Judges and handlers to be experienced coon hunters. Granted, many newcomers to the sport are not, but the Judges should be.

If you can honestly see an obvious path, in terms of limbs or vines from one tree to another, then give the dogs the benefit of doubt. Otherwise, let’s take our lumps and strive to breed accurate locators in our hounds rather than relying on lame excuses. Small branches that brush each other do not qualify. No dog is 100 percent accurate, and part of the game is trying to find something better than what we are feeding.

Thanks for the reply Trevor. I do feel it needs more clarity in future , but we can live by this for now.

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Get deep or Get Beat!

So, "an obvious path" is the answer.

Y'all are relying on the handlers being experienced coon hunters. Therein lies one of the problems. Apparently y'all haven't been on a night hunt lately. Just look at the answers above.
The other problem is the handlers that know better but......

Another thing, I for the life of me can't figure out why an experienced smart hound would trail in and tree on one tree when the coon climbed the tree next to it. Obviously the coon climbed the tree the dog is on and jumped over. Me being the experienced coon hunter that I am have seen quite a few coons run out a limb and sail into the next tree just like a squirrel. And any experienced coon hunter knows that a coon will climb a smaller tree and jump over into its den whenever possible. So, I guess that "obvious" is in the eye of the beholder.

As for lame cross out excuses, I agree 100%. We have all heard them. If your dog's tree is slick and the next tree is slick then you are minused.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
So, "an obvious path" is the answer.

Y'all are relying on the handlers being experienced coon hunters. Therein lies one of the problems. Apparently y'all haven't been on a night hunt lately. Just look at the answers above.
The other problem is the handlers that know better but......

Another thing, I for the life of me can't figure out why an experienced smart hound would trail in and tree on one tree when the coon climbed the tree next to it. Obviously the coon climbed the tree the dog is on and jumped over. Me being the experienced coon hunter that I am have seen quite a few coons run out a limb and sail into the next tree just like a squirrel. And any experienced coon hunter knows that a coon will climb a smaller tree and jump over into its den whenever possible. So, I guess that "obvious" is in the eye of the beholder.

As for lame cross out excuses, I agree 100%. We have all heard them. If your dog's tree is slick and the next tree is slick then you are minused.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
X2, We all have witnessed coons crossing over into another tree at some time in our hunting careers and definitely know that coons will climb a smaller tree and cross over into their den tree. I hate a slick treeing dog, but I won't punish a dog for a coon crossing over, what happened to common sense? Dave

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I guess that we just need more solid judges. It is hard to nix a 3 to 1 or 2 to 1 vote.

There are cases where it's just bad luck in a hunt. I have sen with my own eyes a coon leaving one tree just as I was getting to the tree, no squalling, he was like a squirrel going from one tree to the next. Tried to stay with him in the dark but lost him about 5 trees over. Think he went into a den. Now if I had gotten there a little later I would never have seen him. He made one jump where there were no touching limbs. So in a hunt it might well be that the coon three trees over could have gone up the tree the dog is treeing on but unless it's pretty obvious I don't think you can score that coon. Truth is I've seen a lot more dogs miss and the coon be up close than I have seen coon do what I described.

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Tom Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I guess that we just need more solid judges. It is hard to nix a 3 to 1 or 2 to 1 vote.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Dave, that's it. Common sense seems to be a missing ingredient sometimes when a scorecard is involved. We've all seen and agree raccoons can and will cross, but we've also had to listen to some of those far stretched theories when minus points are about to hit the card. Always has been and always will be but the solid judges will generally nix the extreme theories.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

as rule says there must be a obvious cross out ( i don't think it says touch )for the coon to be scored

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark V.
as rule says there must be a obvious cross out ( i don't think it says touch )for the coon to be scored

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__________________
Get deep or Get Beat!

Yes, therein lies the problem. There is no rule.

From the perspective of someone who admittedly knows nothing about competition hunting.... it seesm really weird this is not addressed in the rules.

Depending on "common sense" seems weird for something like this. Common sense is like a unicorn anyway... if it ever really existed a group of guys could just use common sense and say which hound was the best hound that night. Rules for anything in life exist because sense has never been common.

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Seeking Soli Deo Gloria through the hounds.

Whether to score the tree the dogs are treeing on or adjacent trees is the judges decision. Barring a non hunting judge, it would take the majority of the cast to overturn his ruling. Then when which tree/trees are to be secured the cast vote tree scoring rules would be applied. Which trees to be scored and how they are scored are two separate issues.

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

quote:

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Originally posted by houndsound
From the perspective of someone who admittedly knows nothing about competition hunting.... it seesm really weird this is not addressed in the rules.

Depending on "common sense" seems weird for something like this. Common sense is like a unicorn anyway... if it ever really existed a group of guys could just use common sense and say which hound was the best hound that night. Rules for anything in life exist because sense has never been common.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses