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-- Coon dog cloned (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928539433)


Posted by kybufford on 06-14-2021 02:29 PM:

Coon dog cloned

With the amount of money being spent on dogs, when do you guys think we will see the first dog cloned?

Right now its around $40-$50k i think to clone one. Like anything else as technology gets better i think price may drop some.

Has anyone heard of coon dog being cloned yet and I wonder if it would be as talented as the original?

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Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 06-14-2021 03:57 PM:

They never are the same as the original, too many factors that have to mesh together, from enviroment to training, not getting sick etc etc. always fun to think about

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 06-14-2021 04:22 PM:

I haven't heard of any being cloned yet but it will come sooner than later!
Your right about the cost right at 50 grand but the cost of genetic preservation ($1,600 for DNA sample to be taken which is from the skin) and storage ($150 a year) is not unreasonable. I myself have considered doing that for possible future use. Like you said I would bet the cost will come down eventually and you never know when a financial situation could change.
With the price plenty of dogs are selling for right now I'm surprised none have considered it more seriously now. Most the hunters are average Joe's but there seems to be plenty with deep enough pockets floating around too.
The company I looked at, ViaGen, offers a 100% success in producing you a live puppy or your money back guarantee. They can't guarantee it will have the ability of old so and so, just the live twin genetically of him or her. That part would be up to you. It's virtually impossible to replicate the conditions environmentally that made that dog what it was but the genetics would be there 100%. I've always considered making a coondog 50% genetics and 50% environment. There is no shortcut on the boot leather but cloning offers the opportunity for a twin genetic match.
Registering them once produced would be the next hoop, single registration would probably be the key.
I imagine that 40 years ago the thought of frozen semen storage and breeding from it along with every dog have a DNA profile were never considered to ever go mainstream yet here we are.
How many have semen in storage for those future dreams at a shot of reproducing that dog of the past right now? How much are you willing to pay for it? Less than the cost of a new truck?

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 06-14-2021 05:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lone Pine JB
wonder why DNA sample is so much? probably just because they can... When I first read this, I started wondering if frozen semen would have enough/right kind of DNA to clone.

I've wondered the same thing but what they list is a tissue sample.
I could definitely see some doing some serious consideration if they could use semen that has been stored on these dead and gone dogs.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
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RIP
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Posted by kybufford on 06-14-2021 06:48 PM:

Its defiantly fun to think about, especially the ones that were strong reproducers. Being able to bring that back into the blood line and throw good pups.

It will happen just a matter of time before someone or a group of die hard guys decide to give it a try.

__________________
Shane Ball
270-922-1527

God only knows who we'd be without soldiers and Jesus.

Rack'em Up Willy pup
--County Line's Rammy(Rambo)

Black and Tans
TREE BANGIN White Boy
*UKC win Friday night Red Bone days 2021
BnT TREE BANGIN BUFFORD the start of it all


Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 06-14-2021 07:50 PM:

.

You would have to clone the hunters also. The new generation isn't interested in the dogs we had that banged around on track. They want to see eyes with a quick strike attached to it. Even if the eyes are 1 mile from where the dog struck it. I am not saying anything against the newer generation of hunters. It is the old ones that never want to let go of the past. Cry about getting beat by the present. And just don't want to face the future.

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Posted by wart on 06-14-2021 08:37 PM:

Dogs

A dog cloned won't be the same every one will be different in nose, drive,hunt etc.


Posted by shadinc on 06-14-2021 11:14 PM:

The nation's top racing mule was cloned years back. It couldn't run like the original.

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Posted by pamjohnson on 06-14-2021 11:19 PM:

Disappointed

That is what would happen. Cattle don't clone well. A coondog sure won't. The dang thing wouldn't even reproduced the same. Waste of time and money just to get disappointed.


Posted by wart on 06-14-2021 11:31 PM:

Dogs

Mrs. Johnson been there with cattle it don't work I wanted to type more negative response but didn't I will leave this topic with this many coonhunters no longer have places to hunt and free cast dogs anymore also coonhunting is no longer a cheap hobby for most I can't imagine a bunch of hillbillies wasting money on cloning old spot


Posted by kybufford on 06-15-2021 01:50 AM:

Re: Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by wart
Mrs. Johnson been there with cattle it don't work I wanted to type more negative response but didn't I will leave this topic with this many coonhunters no longer have places to hunt and free cast dogs anymore also coonhunting is no longer a cheap hobby for most I can't imagine a bunch of hillbillies wasting money on cloning old spot


You know you get on here and try to keep a forum alive with stuff coon hunters talk about. Then this guy shows up. I bet your a hoot and half to drink a beer with.

__________________
Shane Ball
270-922-1527

God only knows who we'd be without soldiers and Jesus.

Rack'em Up Willy pup
--County Line's Rammy(Rambo)

Black and Tans
TREE BANGIN White Boy
*UKC win Friday night Red Bone days 2021
BnT TREE BANGIN BUFFORD the start of it all


Posted by Reuben on 06-15-2021 02:55 AM:

If I were well off and had plenty of hunting spots…
I would probably clone a dog…but he would have to meet certain requirements…

1. He had to be a top hunting dog that produces well…

2. He was a calm and laid back dog until you dropped the tailgate…

3. He was of correct size, correct conformation and color…

4. His sire and dam were also top performers with the same look, were mild mannered until it was time to work…

5. Grand sire and dam were of same type of dogs…

The pup would be raised with a litter of pups…a few imprinting exercises starting at a week of age…and around 6 weeks imprinting and training exercises will be used to enhance his chances of making a top dog…not overdoing any one exercise…this would be the foundation prior to going into the woods…

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...


Posted by wart on 06-15-2021 03:12 AM:

Dogs

Mr. Ball I don't drink and my post did exactly what I intended it to do get someone like yourself to join the discussion maybe we can get 2 or 3 pages out of it instead of just 1 and finally you need to be hunting that nice 2 year old black dog you have. recently bought he wont be nice by getting on here only in the woods


Posted by Reuben on 06-15-2021 03:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
If I were well off and had plenty of hunting spots…
I would probably clone a dog…but he would have to meet certain requirements…

1. He had to be a top hunting dog that produces well…

2. He was a calm and laid back dog until you dropped the tailgate…

3. He was of correct size, correct conformation and color…

4. His sire and dam were also top performers with the same look, were mild mannered until it was time to work…

5. Grand sire and dam were of same type of dogs…

The pup would be raised with a litter of pups…a few imprinting exercises starting at a week of age…and around 6 weeks imprinting and training exercises will be used to enhance his chances of making a top dog…not overdoing any one exercise…this would be the foundation prior to going into the woods…



Well…if I had access to a line of dogs like I described above… I would just buy a few pups from those dogs and would just linebreed and inbreed the best pups and I wouldn’t have the need to clone…it would be a lot more fun trying to select the very best pups for hunting and breeding…why even have a breeding program if we don’t do our absolute best in choosing the right pups?

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...


Posted by Reuben on 06-15-2021 03:37 AM:

I guess if someone is just looking to clone a great dog that many of the dogs in the pedigree were just average, and you were mainly interested in recreating that dog then it would be ok to do so…

I tend to look beyond the pup or dog to see the potential or lack of…for two reasons…the first is in increasing my chances of getting the hunting dog I want…and second…the breeding potential…

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...


Posted by Albert Fulton on 06-15-2021 12:36 PM:

”The deader they get.The better they get”
“Let sleeping dogs lie” 😀


Posted by Driftwoodblue on 06-15-2021 01:11 PM:

Re: Disappointed

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
That is what would happen. Cattle don't clone well. A coondog sure won't. The dang thing wouldn't even reproduced the same. Waste of time and money just to get disappointed.


most notable in the cattle.. there was a bull in the PBR-- Panhandle Slim -- big money winner too.- sold for Big money then, they found he had a terminal condition, cloned him, I know there were 6 that lived. 2 were destroyed early on account of they too mean to handle. 4 made it to the PBR ranks. 2 of those were a bit wicked both in the chute and after the rider hit the ground. the other 2 were not that wicked but they had some of those tendencies.
in performance terms they were not up to the level the original was.


Posted by pamjohnson on 06-15-2021 01:37 PM:

Re: Re: Disappointed

quote:
Originally posted by Driftwoodblue
most notable in the cattle.. there was a bull in the PBR-- Panhandle Slim -- big money winner too.- sold for Big money then, they found he had a terminal condition, cloned him, I know there were 6 that lived. 2 were destroyed early on account of they too mean to handle. 4 made it to the PBR ranks. 2 of those were a bit wicked both in the chute and after the rider hit the ground. the other 2 were not that wicked but they had some of those tendencies.
in performance terms they were not up to the level the original was.

dairy cattle have had similar results. They are just disappointing.


Posted by kybufford on 06-15-2021 05:30 PM:

Re: Dogs

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wart
Mr. Ball I don't drink and my post did exactly what I intended it to do get someone like yourself to join the discussion maybe we can get 2 or 3 pages out of it instead of just 1 and finally you need to be hunting that nice 2 year old black dog you have. recently bought he wont be nice by getting on here only in the woods [/QUOTE

LOL i started the post me and couple guys were talking bout cloning the other night. Me and that dog have a love hate relation ship right now me and him aint talking. But we gonna mend our differences tonight i think in Tell City. Couple guys wanting to hunt.

__________________
Shane Ball
270-922-1527

God only knows who we'd be without soldiers and Jesus.

Rack'em Up Willy pup
--County Line's Rammy(Rambo)

Black and Tans
TREE BANGIN White Boy
*UKC win Friday night Red Bone days 2021
BnT TREE BANGIN BUFFORD the start of it all


Posted by Paul Frederick on 06-15-2021 06:36 PM:

Cloning a coondog is an interesting topic to think about for sure. I personally can't see it ever being done because of the cost and the unknowns. The environmental factors involved in raising any kind of performance animal just can't be duplicated, no matter how hard we might try. That alone would make it impossible for a cloned dog to be exactly like the original in the woods. Granted, they could turn out better based on conditions, but that is unlikely.

I think one area it would be appealing to some folks is in the breeding pen. No matter what you say, the cloned dog is genetically an exact match to the original. That would mean that they would reproduce exactly like the original did. The problem factor is the genetic quality of the females (assuming the clone was male) that were bred to the clone. Just because the original reproduced well in their day doesn't mean they would reproduce well with today's females.

For instance, if we could clone Lipper, the coonhound who has had the most number of pups in history, technically it would be a genetic match for Lipper. We all know he was a great reproducer back in his day, but would he reproduce as well on modern females? Probably not. Genetic weaknesses coondogs had in the 80s (i.e. not enough tree power) aren't a problem in the majority of today's Walker bloodlines. Today we have a different set of weaknesses that Lipper may not be able to improve upon.

It is interesting to talk about, but ultimately, as I said before, I doubt it will ever be done in the coonhound world. Too much money and uncertainty for even the richest and most die-hard coondog enthusiasts.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-15-2021 07:42 PM:

I have a dog currently stored at VIA GEN and will one day hope to elaborate more in depth about the results.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 06-15-2021 09:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
I have a dog currently stored at VIA GEN and will one day hope to elaborate more in depth about the results.

Good idea IMO.
Like I mentioned in an earlier post, who would have thought all those years ago that storing and shipping semen would become as common as practice as it is now? I see this as not much different. We all breed for certain genetics and I just see this as a tool to get the genetic makeup that works for us. Yes, the ball is in our court as far putting the dog in the right environment for success. As far as the cost go to do it with the price that many are willing to pay for a hound I don't see it as that far in the future or not happening at all as some do.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
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RIP
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*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER


Posted by travis gideon on 06-15-2021 10:06 PM:

I talked to Russ Bellar a couple years and he took A LOT of tissue from What's Up Doc and put them in his freezer. He told me he wants to clone him one day.....don't be surprised if and when this happens!!!

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Posted by Paul Frederick on 06-16-2021 08:41 PM:

Here's the next question that will come up: how will the clone be registered? I don't mean what registry, but will the dog have a unique name? Will the clone use the same name and number as the original? Will the clone have to compete for titles or will they carry over from the original? Will the pups and stats of the clone be added to the PAD of the original?

I sure don't have the answer, but it does make for some interesting discussions. I mean, the dog is an exact genetic replica so I could see them using the same name and/or number. Or I guess they could do it like the titles now. You could have House's Lipper, the original, and House's Lipper(2) for the clone. This will definitely be a problem the registry is going to have to try to figure out.

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Posted by Reuben on 06-17-2021 04:11 AM:

Surrogate mother…

While the cloned pup has the DNA of the parent that will be the cloned parent…the surrogate mother will not be the same as the cloned parents dam…the pup gets all its nutrients from a different dam whose hormones will probably react differently than the original dams…so that is a difference…the hormones that flows through the female will probably flow through the unborn pups…

Regardless…I would try it if I had the money to spare…
I would do all I could to get all my ducks in a row to ensure the highest probability in getting what I want…

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...


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