UKC Forums - How do you score this

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Posted by Bob Gleason on 02-18-2021 09:23 PM:

How do you score this

3 dog cast.. dog A stuck before the minute dog B stuck after the minute both trailing straight a way about 200 yards away dog C struck 75 yards to the right of the cast
dogs A and B are now 400+ yards going straight away
Dog C Treed 125 yards to the right. Dogs A and B shut up before the tree is closed Dogs A and B are both on dog C tree.

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Posted by MARSHALL AYERS on 02-18-2021 10:37 PM:

I know you’re asking because one struck in the minute and they back stopped what they were doing and come back but let me ask does it change anything all all if you cut them and they were silent for 10 minutes and the exact same scenario happened (except for the under the min) at 700 yards?

We all know what happened but there isn’t anything you can do about it. 125 yards infront of you or 1000 yards it’s the same.

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Posted by walkerstyleee on 02-19-2021 01:46 AM:

Plus them up.. You can’t assume those dogs quit. They may have, but they may have backtracked it and cut back. As long as it’s not 100% obvious and you were running the 8 on them and nothing else is barking, you’ll plus them up. Might not like it, but that’s just the way you do it.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 02-19-2021 02:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by walkerstyleee
Plus them up.. You can’t assume those dogs quit. They may have, but they may have backtracked it and cut back. As long as it’s not 100% obvious and you were running the 8 on them and nothing else is barking, you’ll plus them up. Might not like it, but that’s just the way you do it.

Also note that the minute in ukc is nothing more than a grace period in which you do not have to strike your dog on or before the 3rd bark it has nothing to do with babbling. Dogs may be minused for babbling at any point and time they have been determined to be doing so. The 1 minute rule is irrelevant to babbling. The rule you are wishing to be applied is in another kennel club.

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 02-19-2021 04:41 AM:

Redneck Mafia, you rarely miss on rules but the UKC one minute rule all about a grace periode for babbling on each turn out.

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Posted by benderb4 on 02-19-2021 04:54 AM:

Re: How do you score this

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Gleason
3 dog cast.. dog A stuck before the minute dog B stuck after the minute both trailing straight a way about 200 yards away dog C struck 75 yards to the right of the cast
dogs A and B are now 400+ yards going straight away
Dog C Treed 125 yards to the right. Dogs A and B shut up before the tree is closed Dogs A and B are both on dog C tree.

GUYS... Did I miss something?
Where does it say they were ever treed? Just says they shut up before tree was closed and both were on C's tree.
If they got declared treed depending on before count down for points awarded
If they never got declared Points minused on strike ..Coon seen
25 each assigned tree on off /slick tree
circle strike ...on circle tree

In any case as explained above .Does not matter when dogs got struck
One minute rule is strictly a courtesy for excited dogs that open when cut..
If dog C had never opened you can't think any dog A and B in this case quit a track just because it moved 400 yards between barks and shut up for 4-5 minutes .

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 02-19-2021 05:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bill(Chew)
Redneck Mafia, you rarely miss on rules but the UKC one minute rule all about a grace periode for babbling on each turn out.

You can be minused for babbling under the minute or anytime after. As I stated before it is simply a grace period in which you are not forced to strike your dog. It is not a babbling rule. They are 2 completely separate rules.

Posted by River Birch Run on 02-19-2021 02:02 PM:

She is right Bill I have minus handlers for striking a dog under the minute babbling. They tried to say it was under the minute, so I said then you should have not struck your dog on a babble.

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Posted by harleydan1956 on 02-19-2021 03:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
You can be minused for babbling under the minute or anytime after. As I stated before it is simply a grace period in which you are not forced to strike your dog. It is not a babbling rule. They are 2 completely separate rules.

Question, I respect and listen to your responses always, but... It says you can be minuses for babbling under a minute. ... The 8 didn't get you, if dog continues to babble, carrying something out, how do you determine cold nose ability, maybe 2nd time, get a warning first time..
I have seen it quite a few times, even happened to me. Only dog running a track in snow or driving rain... Dog accused of babbling, voted to minus. Dog comes treed, has a coon, still no dogs honor. Still had to take argument back to MOH. He sided with cast. Even though dog wasn't running out of the area. Treed 157 yds from cut spot.
Anyway... Understood, the rule is to stop that dog from getting undeserved points. Without understanding the dog and his/her nose, how can it be minused unless totally obvious?

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 02-19-2021 06:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by harleydan1956
Question, I respect and listen to your responses always, but... It says you can be minuses for babbling under a minute. ... The 8 didn't get you, if dog continues to babble, carrying something out, how do you determine cold nose ability, maybe 2nd time, get a warning first time..
I have seen it quite a few times, even happened to me. Only dog running a track in snow or driving rain... Dog accused of babbling, voted to minus. Dog comes treed, has a coon, still no dogs honor. Still had to take argument back to MOH. He sided with cast. Even though dog wasn't running out of the area. Treed 157 yds from cut spot.
Anyway... Understood, the rule is to stop that dog from getting undeserved points. Without understanding the dog and his/her nose, how can it be minused unless totally obvious?

I never said it needed minused. What I stated is that the determination has nothing to do with the minute it is simply a grace period in which you don't have to strike your dog. The original poster mentions that one struck under the minute. My point is that the minute is irrelevant in determining babbling. Struck dogs can be determined to be babbling at any point in a hunt. Too many seem to want to miss apply the minute.

Posted by Bob Gleason on 02-19-2021 08:07 PM:

I'm not questioning the stuck before the minute ? I know the babbling rule. I did not tell you that the 8 was put on the dog twice but as they were 400+ yards going straight away from the cast. And when the other dog treed directly
to the right off the cast both dogs A and B shut up and run back 400 yards to cover dog C. they did make it in time to get in for 25. But to me the left a track that they were purposively WORKING???? Rule say when dog leaves track that it's work should be misused. That's what I wanted to see.

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 02-19-2021 09:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Gleason
I'm not questioning the stuck before the minute ? I know the babbling rule. I did not tell you that the 8 was put on the dog twice but as they were 400+ yards going straight away from the cast. And when the other dog treed directly
to the right off the cast both dogs A and B shut up and run back 400 yards to cover dog C. they did make it in time to get in for 25. But to me the left a track that they were purposively WORKING???? Rule say when dog leaves track that it's work should be misused. That's what I wanted to see.

Bob, a key part of the rule referencing dogs that quit a track is the continuing portion of the rule that states "and comes in to cast or to tree". There's an exception and states to reference 5(b) that applies to the tree part. Frankly, I'm not sure why 4 (a) even includes "to tree" because we have specific rules for dogs that come in to the tree regardless of possibly running a separate track or not. In your case, so long as those dogs were declared treed within the three minutes, nothing else really matters.

Posted by harleydan1956 on 02-19-2021 10:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
I never said it needed minused. What I stated is that the determination has nothing to do with the minute it is simply a grace period in which you don't have to strike your dog. The original poster mentions that one struck under the minute. My point is that the minute is irrelevant in determining babbling. Struck dogs can be determined to be babbling at any point in a hunt. Too many seem to want to miss apply the minute.

Maybe I misunderstood. You said dogs can be minused under the minute. I was just wondering how.
Sorry,

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 02-20-2021 12:18 AM:

If the judge or majority of cast thinks dogs were struck on a babble you minus them....first minute last minute or any minute in between. You don't have to wait to see what they do or that they take a track out of there in UKC.

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Posted by harleydan1956 on 02-20-2021 12:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
If the judge or majority of cast thinks dogs were struck on a babble you minus them....first minute last minute or any minute in between. You don't have to wait to see what they do or that they take a track out of there in UKC.

I believe the word "think" has no place in minusing a dog. Believe you are sure, would have to apply to punish a dog. At least, pretty sure. And if you can be sure in under 60 seconds, you are good. If you "think"a dog is running trash, moved when treed, and minus without being sure.. you will have alot if question marks and/or trips to the MOH on Ch casts.

Posted by Tim Green on 02-20-2021 01:13 AM:

So if you can minus a dog for being struck on a babble anytime..before the minute, after the minute, last minute...etc,...then why am I required to strike my dog on or before the third bark after the grace period? I could just say....oh he’s babbling and I only strike my dog honestly...lol.

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Posted by Donnie Stevens on 02-20-2021 02:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by harleydan1956
I believe the word "think" has no place in minusing a dog. Believe you are sure, would have to apply to punish a dog. At least, pretty sure. And if you can be sure in under 60 seconds, you are good. If you "think"a dog is running trash, moved when treed, and minus without being sure.. you will have alot if question marks and/or trips to the MOH on Ch casts.

If the majority "thinks" a dog is babbling then for scoring purposes that's what its doin. You don't have to prove anything lol. And as far as babbling goes for most dogs 60 seconds are more then enough to know they're babbling. This game is full of situations that requuire judgement calls and votes. You cannot prove a dog is or isn't smelling something nor do you have to.

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Posted by Tim Green on 02-20-2021 02:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
If the majority "thinks" a dog is babbling then for scoring purposes that's what its doin. You don't have to prove anything lol. And as far as babbling goes for most dogs 60 seconds are more then enough to know they're babbling. This game is full of situations that requuire judgement calls and votes. You cannot prove a dog is or isn't smelling something nor do you have to.

Some just have better sniffers than others. Lol

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Posted by Rip on 02-20-2021 03:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
You can be minused for babbling under the minute or anytime after. As I stated before it is simply a grace period in which you are not forced to strike your dog. It is not a babbling rule. They are 2 completely separate rules.

He's absolutely correct. The minute and babbling have nothing to do with each other. The minute is only a grace period to ALLOW dogs to babble and not have to be called struck. If you call them struck on a babble you are subject to being minused for babbling, minute or no minute.

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Posted by Rip on 02-20-2021 03:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Green
So if you can minus a dog for being struck on a babble anytime..before the minute, after the minute, last minute...etc,...then why am I required to strike my dog on or before the third bark after the grace period? I could just say....oh he’s babbling and I only strike my dog honestly...lol.

There is a penalty for a babbling dog. You MUST strike them and take your minus if they babble longer than a minute.

I don't want ANY grace period all it does is allow babblers to steal strike points it doesn't help the honest dog at all. It's not hard to stop a dog from babbling.

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Posted by Rip on 02-20-2021 03:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Gleason
I'm not questioning the stuck before the minute ? I know the babbling rule. I did not tell you that the 8 was put on the dog twice but as they were 400+ yards going straight away from the cast. And when the other dog treed directly
to the right off the cast both dogs A and B shut up and run back 400 yards to cover dog C. they did make it in time to get in for 25. But to me the left a track that they were purposively WORKING???? Rule say when dog leaves track that it's work should be misused. That's what I wanted to see.

As Allen has already answered, they are allowed to switch 12 tracks if they want as long as they keep the strike open and get to the tree in time. It is what it is. Those are the rules. The dog must COME IN TO THE CAST to be minused for quitting a track.

This rule has been misinterpreted either intentionally or unintentionally for as long as I have been in the nite hunts. They must come in to the cast to be minused for quitting a track. They can quit as many tracks as they want as long as they don't come in.

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Posted by Tim Green on 02-20-2021 03:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
There is a penalty for a babbling dog. You MUST strike them and take your minus if they babble longer than a minute.

I don't want ANY grace period all it does is allow babblers to steal strike points it doesn't help the honest dog at all. It's not hard to stop a dog from babbling.

If my dog leaves opening, and at 61 sec I strike him or I struck him at 5 sec and he never quits....and the next time everyone sees him, he is under a coon.....I should never be minused.

Example: Full Throttle Meltdown....and I’ve owned one also.

I honestly don’t care who strikes first....but I dang sure care who finishes first. If this sport would evolve and remove the strike and just count coons.....our game would change.

If you cut 4 dogs and they go opposite directions, and let’s just say 2 get together on one tree and 2 get together on another....1,000 yds apart and both trees have coons. You know dang good and well, they didn’t run the same tracks, but 2 of those dogs only get 25 & 50 strike respectively.

Or now with no leash lock and one dog at large....well, my dog gets punished for starting a whole new track, for 25.

Doesn’t seem right huh, but that’s the rules we live by. Don’t hate the game, hate the player.

Take your losses like your victories! Stay humble

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Posted by Rip on 02-20-2021 04:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Green
If my dog leaves opening, and at 61 sec I strike him or I struck him at 5 sec and he never quits....and the next time everyone sees him, he is under a coon.....I should never be minused.

Example: Full Throttle Meltdown....and I’ve owned one also.

I honestly don’t care who strikes first....but I dang sure care who finishes first. If this sport would evolve and remove the strike and just count coons.....our game would change.

If you cut 4 dogs and they go opposite directions, and let’s just say 2 get together on one tree and 2 get together on another....1,000 yds apart and both trees have coons. You know dang good and well, they didn’t run the same tracks, but 2 of those dogs only get 25 & 50 strike respectively.

Or now with no leash lock and one dog at large....well, my dog gets punished for starting a whole new track, for 25.

Doesn’t seem right huh, but that’s the rules we live by. Don’t hate the game, hate the player.

Take your losses like your victories! Stay humble

If he's babbling I'm minusing you as a judge. You may outvote me but I'm putting the pencil to you no matter where he ends up. If he aint babbling you got no problem. If he is I will throw the minus to him and you can call for a vote.

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Posted by Tim Green on 02-20-2021 02:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
If he's babbling I'm minusing you as a judge. You may outvote me but I'm putting the pencil to you no matter where he ends up. If he aint babbling you got no problem. If he is I will throw the minus to him and you can call for a vote.

If a dog carries that track out and has a coon....you can minus it all you want....and your vote might carry some weight with some home field advantage, but it won’t everywhere. You only need that strike anyway if your dog can’t tree a coon very fast. Some people feel they need to minus good consistent winning dogs to get them out of cast so they have a chance.

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Posted by Rip on 02-20-2021 02:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Green
If a dog carries that track out and has a coon....you can minus it all you want....and your vote might carry some weight with some home field advantage, but it won’t everywhere. You only need that strike anyway if your dog can’t tree a coon very fast. Some people feel they need to minus good consistent winning dogs to get them out of cast so they have a chance.

No my vote wouldn't carry any more weight than any other vote on a hunting cast.

That said I been hunting a long time and I can tell if one is babbling most of the time, but I get fooled as well.

Just barking isn't carrying a track out just to get that out there. I have minused several that didn't shut up but they were babbling.

I have seen plenty of babbling fools park under a coon. Whether or not they eventually got under a coon makes no difference in whether or not the dog was babbling.

I have also voted not to minus a dog that just barked alot and was a good strike dog while everyone else was crying it was babbling because it was "struck under the minute". Just because the dog is struck under the minute doesn't mean it's babbling. Just because the handler waited after the minute doesn't mean it's not babbling.

What I am getting at is everyone think the minute has something to do with minusing a dog for babbling but in reality it is only a grace period to ALLOW your dog to babble for a minute without having to call it struck and take your minus.

Babbling is purely on what the dog is doing.

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