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What are your thoughts

Seems like every day is hear about a 6-10 month old pup that is setting the world on fire but when I look for a really nice 3-4 year old they are mighty scarce. What's the deal.

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Tom Wood

Tom

2 things, number 1 is that most folks WILL NOT sell a dog that's doing really good and number 2 is there really are not that many that are doing what I call really good. Some folks think just because a young dog will tree a hot coon that they are stem wonders, not so. Just my 2 cents. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Imho,
I know I'm not great with pups, and I'll never claim to be. But a bunch of these "fire starters" seem to fizzle out for different reasons. Some fall short because they don't get pushed at the right time. Others fall short because they'll tree coons but never get any better than a green broke pup because they're lacking the tools. A group of us got talking last Saturday at a hunt on this subject. And we did notice that it seems a pup that trees coons its first night in the woods falls short in other categories. And that a bunch of those never get any better at it. Then you'll find a diamond in the rough that just needs a bunch of woods time and some boot leather and a green switch to be a decent one.

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Eric DePue
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And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

Gone but not forgotten

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Don't forget the shocking collar. It's turned many great prospects into mediocre (or worse) dogs.

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Donald Bergeron

Some is due to genetics ( I know one popular line that is ) at 9 moths to 14 months old the owners are proud. At 15 months old they would tree slick on a 100 yard turn loose coon.


Tar

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Some is due to genetics ( I know one popular line that is ) at 9 moths to 14 months old the owners are proud. At 15 months old they would tree slick on a 100 yard turn loose coon.


Tar

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Donald Bergeron

quote:

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Originally posted by shadinc
Don't forget the shocking collar. It's turned many great prospects into mediocre (or worse) dogs.

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Eric DePue
Hill Country Kennels Itty-Bitty
PKC CH Wax's Late Night Boom
And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

Gone but not forgotten

GrNtCh, PKC Ch Hillbilly Bildo
Pr Broken Oaks Wild Blue Gypsy

Re: What are your thoughts

quote:

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Originally posted by Preacher Tom
Seems like every day is hear about a 6-10 month old pup that is setting the world on fire but when I look for a really nice 3-4 year old they are mighty scarce. What's the deal.

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Re: Re: What are your thoughts

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Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Many are sold at this age and then never reach their full potential to people without the patience to see one through. The ones that do are seldom sold and if they are the cost is in the 5 figure range and they are rarely advertised. A few may go backwards but much of the time it is from the hands they end up in. I even think of out local comp hunters most are hunting something young and have no wish to sell.

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Tom Wood

It takes a lot of boot work and time to finish one out. Most of the time it's easy to get a pup started, not always but there are plenty that will start between 6 months and a year old. There are a lot fewer fellows that are willing to put night after night in training a pup. For those hunters that do put the time in night after night they realize the value of a good pup and don't just sell them for a couple hundred or even a grand just to start all over again with a pup that cost them next thing to a thousand dollars.
Even if ya hunt every night for a couple hours a night you can start several pups quickly but your lucky to finish one or two out a year.

Could be various things but always thought that one of the reasons is that some of those young stem winders are put in the hunts too soon and too much before their mental capacity has matured and they end up blown up.

it's a little bit of all the above.

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Lone Pine North

Redneck Mafia got me to thinking that very few of these stem winder pups are kept by the person that starts them. Seems like many are sold because they will bring good money. This may contribute to the fact that many don't go on to be what it looked like they would be. New owner might think that the dog is more finished than it is and so he starts correcting hard for anything the pup does wrong. Pup gets confused and just doesn't perform. So I have a 22 month old "pup" out of really good dogs that has only been hunted for about the last month. He has looked really good and has also been disappointing. Had considered selling him but I think I will just stay with him and see what he does. He deserves more chance than I have given him.

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Tom Wood

Everyone likes an early starter and I do too, but its not how they start its how they finish that gets them the long term contract here.

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Its always been that way, anything young is destined to be the next world champion, anything two or three has to prove their worth. I can give you a list of local guys that always have that next super stakes winner, but always fall just a tad short, and you see the dog for sale pretty quick. I can also give you a list of local guys that never brag on a dog and don't get real excited just because one treed a coon two weeks ago. These same guys, if they decide to go to a coon hunt, you can bet they now what they're packin' and, and you can bet that dogs ready. These same guys always hunt a nice hound, and seldom buy a finished dog.

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I Believe its much more exciting to see a young dog start to tree coon than a seasoned dog that does it night in and night out. I've trained out many pups and once they start to tree coon on a regular basis it seems like the excitement has died down, hence forth, you see what you really have. It's not uncommon for a 7/8/9 month old pup to tree an easy coon and it can be deceiving and no gauge to what the pup will be like down the road. Now, when you take that same pup a year or two down the road and it still excites you, then you have something! That's why you see the young ones for sale and the 3/4 year olds not for sale unless you're willing to shuck out the big $$$$$ and then that may not get one either, JMO.

1. Because every young dog a guy has high hope's for and the potential is still there.

2. Lot people I think quite a young dog that been doing real good that goes threw phase where they stopped progressing a quickly.

3. Lots dogs never get finished out all the way once they start needing singled out ect.

4. Young dogs pushed to hard.

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Re: What are your thoughts

quote:

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Originally posted by Preacher Tom
Seems like every day is hear about a 6-10 month old pup that is setting the world on fire but when I look for a really nice 3-4 year old they are mighty scarce. What's the deal.

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The highs and the lows

From the experiences that I've personally had, the pups take off one night and really get a person fired up. Then the females come in heat or the males lose there ever living mind at 10-14 months of age. A person has to be patient and SMART enough to just figure out young dogs will be dogs and hope the highs out weigh the lows. Most people get to bragging on the young dog that's on fire, it picks up a bad habit or goes through a low time and they cant handle that therefor that's when the training methods ruin them (shock collars, switching them, being too rough). I'm guilty like the rest of us of getting frustrated and going too far, BUT some take it way way too far and then the pup is done...

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The early starter trees hard in the summer with lots of leaves and no proof of a coon is in the tree...do we encourage and praise the pup or do we lead him off the tree? I know what I would do...

Do we hunt them hard as youngsters or do we optimize hunt time as best we can to keep that fire burning bright?

It’s like a kid that tries to eat a gallon ice cream at each sitting...after a while he will lose that desire to eat ice cream...give him a little each time 3 or 4 times a week and he will look forward for more...

If we aren’t 100 percent sure the pup is trashing do not correct...I choose to ignore...if I’m not sure I ignore because the error I make will be worse if I correct for what the pup is doing right than if I correct the pup for something that he is doing wrong...we should decide on this before we take the pup to the woods...

Never call the pup in to correct...

We can go on and on about what can ruin a pup...
I like early starters and will always pick them first especially if they have the looks to go with it...

At the minimum I want to see them really improve by at least 10 months of age...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...