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What is the Total Score for Dog B?

Dogs A, B, C, and D all struck in that order. Dog A is declared treed and tree is closed. No other dogs declared treed. When the cast arrives at A's tree, they find Dog B is also there treeing. The tree is slick. What is the total minus score for Dog B on this tree?

If the question is asking just about the tree points, I believe it is -25.

"Rule 4 (h). Dogs treeing but not declared treed when Judge arrives, will be assigned and minused 25 tree points on off game or slick tree. Dogs shut out on strike on slick tree or off game will receive minus tree points only."

I'm not 100% sure what to do with the strike points in this case.

-100

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quote:

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Originally posted by houndsound
If the question is asking just about the tree points, I believe it is -25.

"Rule 4 (h). Dogs treeing but not declared treed when Judge arrives, will be assigned and minused 25 tree points on off game or slick tree. Dogs shut out on strike on slick tree or off game will receive minus tree points only."

I'm not 100% sure what to do with the strike points in this case.

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Keep them coming. VOTE!

quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
"total" points.

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The majority got it right (58%). Here's a breakdown towards finding the right rule(s) that apply to the specific scenario.

Three dogs are treeing as called when they arrive at the tree. The dog in question is Dog D, who is also treeing at this tree but was not declared treed. Where some get caught up and ultimately end up with the wrong ruling is scoring Dog D too soon. In other words, in accordance with the rules, the proper scoring for Dog D solely depends on how the tree is scored.

So when it comes to "dogs treeing but not declared treed", the thing to remember is this. We need to score the tree first. This is true 100% of the time. There's going to be three potential possibilities in play.

1) coon seen.
2) no coon seen and the tree is circled.
3) no coon seen and the tree is ruled as either being slick or contains off game.

1) If the tree has a coon seen.......... Rule 4(d) applies. {If dog declared treed; after three minutes has elapsed no additional dog can be declared treed at that particular tree. Dog(s) treeing but not declared treed when judge arrives minus strike points if coon is seen.}

2) If no coon is seen and tree is circled.......Rule 5(a) applies. {where dog strikes and trees on a tree or a hole in the ground where there could be coon, yet judge does not see see con and no off game is seen.}

3) If tree is slick or contains off game....... Rule 4(h) applies. {Dogs treeing but not declared treed when judge arrives, will be assigned and minused 25 tree points on off game or slick tree. Dogs shut out* on strike on slick or off game will receive minus tree points only.}

Correct Scoring....... In referencing each of the rules noted above, we see that #3 Rule 4(h) applies to Dog B. That rule also mentions dogs shut out on strike. A dog shut out on strike is one that was not declared struck before the first dog was declared treed on this particular tree. Dog B was in fact struck in before Dog A was declared treed, therefore, Dog B was not shut out on strike. The rule mentions dogs shut out on strike on strike to receive minus tree points only. We know that wasn't the case, so we interpret this to mean that Dog D shall be minused BOTH strike and tree points.

Dog B was declared struck for 75 strike points. We're now going to award him 25 points on tree AND minus both strike and tree points. 75 (strike) + 25 (tree) = 100 total minus for Dog B on this turnout. Final answer.

Please post any "different" unrelated scenarios on a separate thread. Otherwise, it just lends to too much confusion for some. Thanks.

quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
The majority got it right (58%). Here's a breakdown towards finding the right rule(s) that apply to the specific scenario.

Three dogs are treeing as called when they arrive at the tree. The dog in question is Dog D, who is also treeing at this tree but was not declared treed. Where some get caught up and ultimately end up with the wrong ruling is scoring Dog D too soon. In other words, in accordance with the rules, the proper scoring for Dog D solely depends on how the tree is scored.

So when it comes to "dogs treeing but not declared treed", the thing to remember is this. We need to score the tree first. This is true 100% of the time. There's going to be three potential possibilities in play.

1) coon seen.
2) no coon seen and the tree is circled.
3) no coon seen and the tree is ruled as either being slick or contains off game.

1) If the tree has a coon seen.......... Rule 4(d) applies. {If dog declared treed; after three minutes has elapsed no additional dog can be declared treed at that particular tree. Dog(s) treeing but not declared treed when judge arrives minus strike points if coon is seen.}

2) If no coon is seen and tree is circled.......Rule 5(a) applies. {where dog strikes and trees on a tree or a hole in the ground where there could be coon, yet judge does not see see con and no off game is seen.}

3) If tree is slick or contains off game....... Rule 4(h) applies. {Dogs treeing but not declared treed when judge arrives, will be assigned and minused 25 tree points on off game or slick tree. Dogs shut out* on strike on slick or off game will receive minus tree points only.}

Correct Scoring....... In referencing each of the rules noted above, we see that #3 Rule 4(h) applies to Dog B. That rule also mentions dogs shut out on strike. A dog shut out on strike is one that was not declared struck before the first dog was declared treed on this particular tree. Dog B was in fact struck in before Dog A was declared treed, therefore, Dog B was not shut out on strike. The rule mentions dogs shut out on strike on strike to receive minus tree points only. We know that wasn't the case, so we interpret this to mean that Dog D shall be minused BOTH strike and tree points.

Dog B was declared struck for 75 strike points. We're now going to award him 25 points on tree AND minus both strike and tree points. 75 (strike) + 25 (tree) = 100 total minus for Dog B on this turnout. Final answer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by houndsound
So when does rule 3(e) come into play if not here? ..." If they are at tree shut out* on when judge arrives, strike points are deleted..." Very confusing to me. For someone on the outside, trying to learn these rules I think they are just organized poorly at times. Rule 3 is POINTS WILL BE PLUS... but 3(e) discusses deleting and minusing..... which seems to be in contradiction to the real answer.?

Which rule allows you to minus the strike point? Looking at rule 4(a-d) I don't see which desrcibe this situation. 4(a) is the closest... but there is not reason to assume the dog "quit" the track then came in to the tree. Rule 3(e) seems to fit the scenario better- no?

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Your first post says that all of the dogs are struck and dog A trees then tree is closed but when they arrive dog B is there treeing.
In your ruling you said that 3 dogs are treeing as declared as called when you arrive.
I am confused was 3 dogs called treed or just dog A
If its like I read in your first post would you not award dog B the next tree position which would be 75 which would give the total score of 150 minus

quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Sounds like you may be confused on the misinterpretation of "shut out". Shut out does not mean that the tree was closed before Dog B could be declared treed. Instead, it's the language used for a dog that was not declared struck BEFORE anther dog had already been declared treed. Secondly, a dog is only considered shut out on strike IF the dog is treed with the dog (same tree) that shut them out.

The scenario given questions the scoring of Dog B, who 1) is treeing but not declared treed and 2) the tree was score as slick.

Rule 3(e) has to do with dogs that are shut out on strike but were in fact declared treed AND a coon was seen. Totally different scenario. What 3(e) tells you how to score a dog that was declared treed, where a coon was seen, but the dog was shut out on strike (not declared struck until after the first dog was already declared treed.

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-100
Rule 4-(h) Dogs treeing but not declared treed, when Judge arrives, will be assigned and minused 25 tree points on off game or slick tree. Dogs shut-out* on strike on slick tree or off game will receive minus tree points only. Refer to Rule 6 (f) for Champion Division casts and off game.

__________________
John Haun

My logic on this.

I agree with the 100-. Here's why.

Dog B tree points: Dog B did tree slick. So is deserving of minus points for treeing slick. Often, a good handler knows when his dog is treeing slick or off-game, and could avoid calling his dog when he knows the tree is bad.

Dog B strike points: Dog B did have 2nd strike. Typically (excluding deletion situations), a dog will either get plus, circle or minus. Obviously a dog can't get plus for treeing slick, and is not deserving of circle points for treeing slick. That only leaves minus points for strike, as it did finish it's track, and should be scored strike points based on that.

That seems perfectly fair to me.

Here's where I diverge. Say there was a coon in the tree. Obviously Dog A would get plus. Dog B will still get minus strike. To me, that shouldn't be right. Late or not, I don't think a dog should be minused for actually treeing a coon. To me, these should be deleted points. This becomes even more relevant if you are recasting dogs.

Re: My logic on this.

Here's where I diverge. Say there was a coon in the tree. Obviously Dog A would get plus. Dog B will still get minus strike. To me, that shouldn't be right. Late or not, I don't think a dog should be minused for actually treeing a coon. To me, these should be deleted points. This becomes even more relevant if you are recasting dogs. [/B][/QUOTE] .....I agree w/half if this.. late dog should get 125- tree point also for getting their late, not 25-..Jmo !

quote:

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Originally posted by JMiller
Your first post says that all of the dogs are struck and dog A trees then tree is closed but when they arrive dog B is there treeing.
In your ruling you said that 3 dogs are treeing as declared as called when you arrive.
I am confused was 3 dogs called treed or just dog A
If its like I read in your first post would you not award dog B the next tree position which would be 75 which would give the total score of 150 minus

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