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winter classic rule question

I have a question about opinions on how something should of been handled. 3 dog cast and 23 minutes left in the cast and we were leaving a tree that a dog that had just treed a coon in. my dog is at large not struck in around 500 yards away. At the tree the judge withdraws his dog and handles her. The dog that had just treed the coon is cut off the tree and turns around and looks at handler and won't leave. so with 20 minutes left i ask the judge to start the 15 on the dog. The handler ask if he can walk up the ditch we were on so he would leave. We agreed to let him. So with 8 minutes gone on the 15 the judge and the other handler start talking about letting the withdrawn dog go to go hunting. I knew they were doing it so the other dog would go hunting. I told them that is blatant rule breaking and they voted me down 2 to 1 anyway. They let the judges dog go and immediately both dogs run and get treed on a circle. I took my question back after we finished and the MOH only scratched the judge which in my opinion wasn't enough since he had already withdrawn anyway.

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601-916-2876

Hunt

This is obvious the dog was already withdrawn should not been turned loose

That is a pretty bad deal all around.

__________________
Grand Nite Ch PKC CH(3) Main Street Blueberry Jam(Autumn Oaks Final 4 Grand Nite Ch 2015) UKC world finalist 2017 Ohio State Ch 2018
Grand Nite Ch(4) PKC Silver CH Main Street Blue SS quarterfinalist 2018. Autumn Oaks Grand 16 2018. Senior Showdown semifinalists 2020. UKC top 25 World hunt 2020. PKC quarterfinalist 2020
Grand Nite Ch HOF PKC Silver Ch Heatseaker Unleash the Kraken(Grand at 15 months old) BBOA Overall 1st place X2, Tournament of Champions Finalist, National Bluetic Days overall winner, Autumn Oaks Grand 16x2 PKC SS Semi Finalist PKC State Hunt Final 4 UKC World Top 20
GRNT CH BLUES AMAZING GRACE
Trevor Hack
567-231-7413

Rules... there is no way that rules can cover every situation that you may come into. What these 2 cast did is a blatant violation of what the term "honor rules" should mean BUT as far as the black and white written rules there is not one that covers it. You can go into handler misconduct which loosely applies but unfortunately really doesn't fit into the definition. I think the MOH essentially just considered the judges dog to be ineligible to hunt after withdrawing and therefore scratched him but there was no rule to scratch the other handler/dog.
Sorry I wish there was something more. Sometimes winning is all to important to some individuals but karma has a way of eventually finding them.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
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RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

quote:

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Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Rules... there is no way that rules can cover every situation that you may come into. What these 2 cast did is a blatant violation of what the term "honor rules" should mean BUT as far as the black and white written rules there is not one that covers it. You can go into handler misconduct which loosely applies but unfortunately really doesn't fit into the definition. I think the MOH essentially just considered the judges dog to be ineligible to hunt after withdrawing and therefore scratched him but there was no rule to scratch the other handler/dog.
Sorry I wish there was something more. Sometimes winning is all to important to some individuals but karma has a way of eventually finding them.

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601-916-2876

gpent24

Never let what others do or may do prevent you from doing the right thing. You only have to answer for what you do, NOT what others do. When you look in the mirror be proud of what you see looking back, now the guys that pulled this trick have to look in mirrors as well and I do not think they will be pleased with what they see looking back at them. Never let a dishonorable man cause you to loss honor no matter the price, honor once lost is hard to regain, if ever. Losing a cast means nothing compared to losing ones honor. Winning a cast means nothing if you lose you honor in doing so. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Re: gpent24

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
Never let what others do or may do prevent you from doing the right thing. You only have to answer for what you do, NOT what others do. When you look in the mirror be proud of what you see looking back, now the guys that pulled this trick have to look in mirrors as well and I do not think they will be pleased with what they see looking back at them. Never let a dishonorable man cause you to loss honor no matter the price, honor once lost is hard to regain, if ever. Losing a cast means nothing compared to losing ones honor. Winning a cast means nothing if you lose you honor in doing so. Dave

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__________________
Grand Nite Ch PKC CH(3) Main Street Blueberry Jam(Autumn Oaks Final 4 Grand Nite Ch 2015) UKC world finalist 2017 Ohio State Ch 2018
Grand Nite Ch(4) PKC Silver CH Main Street Blue SS quarterfinalist 2018. Autumn Oaks Grand 16 2018. Senior Showdown semifinalists 2020. UKC top 25 World hunt 2020. PKC quarterfinalist 2020
Grand Nite Ch HOF PKC Silver Ch Heatseaker Unleash the Kraken(Grand at 15 months old) BBOA Overall 1st place X2, Tournament of Champions Finalist, National Bluetic Days overall winner, Autumn Oaks Grand 16x2 PKC SS Semi Finalist PKC State Hunt Final 4 UKC World Top 20
GRNT CH BLUES AMAZING GRACE
Trevor Hack
567-231-7413

Sad

Very good words Mr. Richards. I agree fully. I will say this that those two hunters cheated. That judge assisted the hound that would not go hunting. And most likely changed the outcome of the cast winner. I would sure hope that he will never hold another score card in any competition hunt...I hate to even think what those two would have come up with on the score card had they been alone! Flip a coin for 1200 plus I guess? I get that the guy with the non hunting dog is probably free and clear but that judge who cast a withdrawn dog to purposely assist another hound should not be scratched. The word is Barred!

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Roy Jarman

Rule 9

9. JUDGES
Judges are picked by the sponsors because they believe them to be honest
and capable of keeping score just as it is given to them by handlers. They will
show no favors to any dog or hunter and will inform handlers of score and time.....


Its covered boys..Black and White...He broke a rule by showing a dog a favor. He should have to defend this at a hearing by UKC officials...

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Roy Jarman

The reason people from down here quit driving 16 hrs to major hunts.



Tar

Re: Sad

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan&Ann
Very good words Mr. Richards. I agree fully. I will say this that those two hunters cheated. That judge assisted the hound that would not go hunting. And most likely changed the outcome of the cast winner. I would sure hope that he will never hold another score card in any competition hunt...I hate to even think what those two would have come up with on the score card had they been alone! Flip a coin for 1200 plus I guess? I get that the guy with the non hunting dog is probably free and clear but that judge who cast a withdrawn dog to purposely assist another hound should not be scratched. The word is Barred!

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601-916-2876

That is an unfortunate break. This is just my opinion from the limited details we have from the hunt. First I have never liked the 15 minute rule. If my dog couldnt tree a coon in 23 minutes while yours was standing around I would be looking at preparing my dog better. Not worrying about winning a cast by scratching another dog that treed more coon than mine. I dont mean to offend anyone, but anyone that has hunted many hunts has been beat by someones judgement call. The only thing to do is train harder and try again next weekend.

Unfortunate Break?

Yea gpent24 what were you thinking. Get cheated in the woods? You need to work harder. Don't come on here complaining about a JUDGE purposely cheating to keep his buddy from getting scratched. Take it on the chin don't complain. Get a better dog you sore loser! Obviously I am being sarcastic. If I were you I would report that judge to UKC. If they choose not to act then ok...Lance you would not have this opinion if it were you that I am sure of...work harder? really?

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Roy Jarman

Re: Re: Sad

quote:

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Originally posted by gpent24
If the dog would of not went hunting and got scratched then yes it would have changed the cast winner. I had treed one coon alone and he had 2 coons alone. I did not care about a cast win. I would of rather the whole cast got thrown out than see someone having to do something like that to win. But this dog ended up getting breed awards and everything.

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Re: Unfortunate Break?

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan&Ann
Yea gpent24 what were you thinking. Get cheated in the woods? You need to work harder. Don't come on here complaining about a JUDGE purposely cheating to keep his buddy from getting scratched. Take it on the chin don't complain. Get a better dog you sore loser! Obviously I am being sarcastic. If I were you I would report that judge to UKC. If they choose not to act then ok...Lance you would not have this opinion if it were you that I am sure of...work harder? really?

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Re: Re: Unfortunate Break?

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Originally posted by Lance Laymon
Dan&Ann I do have that opinion.This was the MOH’s official call at a major hunt not a group of no nothing hunters in a Hunt director 3 dog hunt. But if you want to over rule a UKC MOH without hearing all the facts in a question panel go ahead.
And yes I would love to have my dog hunting by itself for 23 minutes with no competition. I believe we should focus on the things we can change not wine about the things we can’t.
However, if you want to get to the bottom of it lets get the names of the cast members the cast number and the MOHs name. That away we know who to watch out for.

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601-916-2876

15 minute rule!

That rule is in place to weed out the non working hound. Or a hound that has no stamina...The hound was not working and was about to be scratched. You stated you don't like the 15 minute rule. The rule is in place to protect the hounds that are in the woods working to tree a coon and get plus points or Minus points if they make a mistake. You are taking the focus off of the non-working hound and not to mention the cheaters and putting the focus on the hound that was in the woods working. Basically blaming the working hound for not treeing a coon while the non-working hound was standing with the cast...Not gonna get personal just a difference in opinion. And why not name the whole cast and MOH. Last I checked this is a UKC message board! The judge Cheated for his friend and that is covered in the rules on the back of the score card. Rule 9!

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Roy Jarman

So what else could he have done to have made it right in your opinion? Judges mess up that doesnt mean they are Trying to be cheaters. Sometimes we are better off and more respected to just take a loss and move on. It is about having fun and making friends and memories. Dwelling on a bad break doesnt change anything.

Nothing

Once that judge decided to cheat there is nothing that be done to undo that. We will never know if the non working dog would have decided to leave. The judge and his partner made sure that we will never know. What can be done is the cheating could be addressed by UKC. That's what I think should be done. I would like to hear how a judge could defend turning his dog loose after withdrawing him. I would like to hear UKC explain if they think punishment for the judge would be in order and if not why not...Rule 9 is very clear on a hunting judge not showing favor to a hound or hunter..He clearly broke rule 9...

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Roy Jarman

Bad Break

Bad Break is when you twist your ankle. Run over a nail and have a flat tire. Catch the flu. What it is not is drawing a cheating judge in a big hunt. That is not a bad break. A judge turning a withdrawn hound out to help another hound get enough courage to go hunting is cheating. Not a bad break. It is cheating sir. Clearly assisting a certain hound that was a few minutes from being scratched.....and if UKC has come to the point that they are gonna over look cheating then no wonder the hunt participation is down down down. Do whats right and when in doubt just do whats right!

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Roy Jarman

Apparently, the MOH didnt feel it was necessary to file charges on the judge. As for the rest of the ruling it seems to me the only thing that could have been done was to rehunt the time after the judges call was made. Which is what the MOH said. I just cant see what else the MOH could have done. He scratched the judge and rehunted time used.
Mr dan&ann, I certainly wish every cast could be run perfect every time with no wrong calls or cheating but people are not perfect and thus we must learn to react properly to being wronged. Or in other words
Life aint always fair so get over the being grieved and move on.

A couple questions

Was your dog struck in?
After scoring the tree, did they wait on your dog to open or put the eight on it and wait on it before recutting?
When the moh was done and agreed to let you all go back out for the remaining 12 min, did he delete the tree they scored on?
Did they go back out for the 12 min?

Re: A couple questions

quote:

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Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
Was your dog struck in?
After scoring the tree, did they wait on your dog to open or put the eight on it and wait on it before recutting?
When the moh was done and agreed to let you all go back out for the remaining 12 min, did he delete the tree they scored on?
Did they go back out for the 12 min?

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__________________
601-916-2876

Re: Re: Re: Unfortunate Break?

quote:

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Originally posted by gpent24
What i said in my first post on this thread was exactly what was said in the front of the MOH with all 3 cast members standing there. They didn't even argue against anything that i said. After he scratched the judge I commented very calmly without raising my voice that i thought it was blatant cheating by both members. The MOH got loud with me and told me he didn't care what i thought and that his decision was final to not say another word. He told me and the other guy we had to go back and hunt 12 minutes which is when the judge turned his dog loose. I withdrew out of principle after i was told that.

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Bad deal but

Yes a bad deal but I think the moh tried to resolve it best he could. What was your point spread at this point?