UKC Forums - New rule ?

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Posted by nextcoonhunters on 12-29-2019 01:20 AM:

New rule ?

Dogs are cut loose. Dog a struck. Handler of c says that dog is babbling, discussion breaks out. Judge says we need to vote. Handler C minus handler B strike my dog, and minus A, Handler D minus dog A. Majority votes minus, with dog b being struck in the middle of the vote what's he go in for?
I'm asking because I'll bet it happens.

Posted by Sgraves on 12-29-2019 01:52 AM:

100

Posted by Rocketman55 on 12-29-2019 04:13 AM:

You can bet your sweet bippie its gonna happen. What a cluster this rule is going to be. All hunters will now have to deal with this new way to get cheated out of strike points up and until the final 4 of the world hunt, and/or up until you make the final 4 of that big money hunt. They will then incorporate the non hunting judge, because they know it will happen if left up to the competitors to comply.

But until you make it that far in those two major hunts there will be a lot of guys and gals going home feeling like they just took one up the ole whazoo

Again JMO!!!!

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-29-2019 05:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
You can bet your sweet bippie its gonna happen. What a cluster this rule is going to be. All hunters will now have to deal with this new way to get cheated out of strike points up and until the final 4 of the world hunt, and/or up until you make the final 4 of that big money hunt. They will then incorporate the non hunting judge, because they know it will happen if left up to the competitors to comply.

But until you make it that far in those two major hunts there will be a lot of guys and gals going home feeling like they just took one up the ole whazoo

Again JMO!!!!

You do realize that even before babbling calls could be questioned and voted on, this is not a new thing.
By previous rules it took the majority of the cast to overturn a hunting judges call now a tie vote will result in the strike points being deleted. Before changes the strike minus would stand on a tie vote.

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Posted by pamjohnson on 12-29-2019 02:31 PM:

I would say dog b is struck in for 75 unless it can wait till the vote is over.

Posted by pamjohnson on 12-29-2019 02:36 PM:

All the rule changes to make it harder to get screwed and then they make rules like this junker

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 12-29-2019 02:53 PM:

That's what I've been telling everyone

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
You do realize that even before babbling calls could be questioned and voted on, this is not a new thing.
By previous rules it took the majority of the cast to overturn a hunting judges call now a tie vote will result in the strike points being deleted. Before changes the strike minus would stand on a tie vote.

But " new rule" you know people. I'm sure some will be out to try it out. So does the judge not accept the call until after the vote. Then 100 or does he accept the call and dog goes in for 75 as 2 dogs cannot hold 100 at the same time.

Posted by pamjohnson on 12-29-2019 02:57 PM:

Re: That's what I've been telling everyone

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
But " new rule" you know people. I'm sure some will be out to try it out. So does the judge not accept the call until after the vote. Then 100 or does he accept the call and dog goes in for 75 as 2 dogs cannot hold 100 at the same time.

in order to vote and minus the judge has to accept the call first.

Posted by benderb4 on 12-29-2019 07:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
I would say dog b is struck in for 75 unless it can wait till the vote is over.

agree.
Just cause dog gits first strike all nite .Boo Hoo its babbler.Them dogs strike that quick after first dog and don't even git nuff time to vote. I says it were no babble.
use your brains.

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 12-29-2019 08:33 PM:

By previous rules it took the majority of the cast to overturn a hunting judges call

I sure do know that before it took a Majority to overturn a first strike, which meat everybody in the cast except you felt there was no track evident.

With this new rule it only takes 50% of the cast to determine no track is evident. That means those handlers who will be receiving 3rd and 4th strike (Silent dogs) will be crazily suggesting the first and/or second dog(s) to open on track are babbling, and especially so if they are down by 25/50 going into the last drop.

They are gonna get your strike points deleted or misused just so they can keep pace and hopefully pull out a first tree with a coon to win the cast. YES I UNDERSTAND IT COMPLETELY

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-29-2019 08:55 PM:

Re: By previous rules it took the majority of the cast to overturn a hunting judges call

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
I sure do know that before it took a Majority to overturn a first strike, which meat everybody in the cast except you felt there was no track evident.

With this new rule it only takes 50% of the cast to determine no track is evident. That means those handlers who will be receiving 3rd and 4th strike (Silent dogs) will be crazily suggesting the first and/or second dog(s) to open on track are babbling, and especially so if they are down by 25/50 going into the last drop.

They are gonna get your strike points deleted or misused just so they can keep pace and hopefully pull out a first tree with a coon to win the cast. YES I UNDERSTAND IT COMPLETELY

This rule actually will make it more difficult to minus a dog. In the past a tie vote the dog was still minused now it is just deleted. Before it took the majority to overturn a judgement call by a non-hunting judge and it still does but now tie votes no longer go with the judges decision to minus your dogs strike points are deleted instead of being minused. The procedure to question calls and votes remains unchanged unlike what the original poster had suggested there is no change in that.

Posted by pinehillkennels on 12-29-2019 11:16 PM:

Next available

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Posted by thomasg on 12-30-2019 02:19 AM:

NOTHING WILL CHANGE ,OLE BABBLING BILLYS HANDLER WILL WAIT TILL THE MINUTE IS UP TO STRIKE HIS DOG WHEN IT HAS DISAPEARED INTO THE DARKNESS ,LOL

Posted by Rocketman55 on 12-30-2019 03:23 AM:

This rule actually will make it more difficult to minus a dog. In the past a tie vote

I sure don't mean to be disrespectful in any way but It appears to me that you are still missing my point. It seems to me that you see nothing wrong with deleting strike point. It seems to me that you are only looking at minus points

You see, I think you are stuck on the fact that this rule only hurts you if you take a minus vs taking a delete. But a delete STILL takes potential plus points away from your dog. You see, by deleting 1st or 2nd strike, you are still knocking the affected hound out of 100 or 75 strike points, thus keeping it from being able to score more points on any coon treed after that strike. No you are not minusing my dog, you are deleting his points which means the same thing as minus should a coon be treed and scored on that particular drop that this dog is a part of.

It doesn't matter if you call it DELETE or MINUS You are still taking potential points away from a dog that you say is babbling so that you can hopefully tree a coon ahead of that dog and then gain the advantage by doing so.

Now do you understand why I'm not in agreement with this new rule. You can call it Delete or minus but you are still taking potential points away from a dog that may very well have earned and deserved them.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-30-2019 04:29 AM:

Re: This rule actually will make it more difficult to minus a dog. In the past a tie vote

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
I sure don't mean to be disrespectful in any way but It appears to me that you are still missing my point. It seems to me that you see nothing wrong with deleting strike point. It seems to me that you are only looking at minus points

You see, I think you are stuck on the fact that this rule only hurts you if you take a minus vs taking a delete. But a delete STILL takes potential plus points away from your dog. You see, by deleting 1st or 2nd strike, you are still knocking the affected hound out of 100 or 75 strike points, thus keeping it from being able to score more points on any coon treed after that strike. No you are not minusing my dog, you are deleting his points which means the same thing as minus should a coon be treed and scored on that particular drop that this dog is a part of.

It doesn't matter if you call it DELETE or MINUS You are still taking potential points away from a dog that you say is babbling so that you can hopefully tree a coon ahead of that dog and then gain the advantage by doing so.

Now do you understand why I'm not in agreement with this new rule. You can call it Delete or minus but you are still taking potential points away from a dog that may very well have earned and deserved them.

Just as has been able to be done in the past. This rule actually makes it more difficult for a dog to take minus points than previously. Do you not believe a cast should vote if a call is disagreed with?
Before ... judge minuses dog for babbling, you ask for cast vote, 2-2 vote - your dog is minused (it took a majority to overturn the judge). Now... judge minuses dog for babbling, you ask for a cast vote, 2-2 vote - your dogs strike points are deleted. Judges vote is equal to the rest of the cast and in the case of a tie points are deleted.

The only way to make strike points no longer an issue is for all dogs to go in for the exact same amount and no babbling rule and just hold dog(s) accountable per the 8 minute rule. I'm guessing you may be one opposed to that idea too.

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 12-30-2019 01:56 PM:

Okay back to the question

I don't care if you like the rule or hate every aspect of it. We are stuck with it until the next time the rules change. So with a vote and many possibilities of the outcome. A dog struck in, in the middle of the vote, either goes down on the paper right than for next available or do you wait until the vote is over an than put him down? I'll try to get in touch with Alan and see if he will give us the Official Ukc answer.

Posted by pamjohnson on 12-30-2019 02:15 PM:

Re: Okay back to the question

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
I don't care if you like the rule or hate every aspect of it. We are stuck with it until the next time the rules change. So with a vote and many possibilities of the outcome. A dog struck in, in the middle of the vote, either goes down on the paper right than for next available or do you wait until the vote is over an than put him down? I'll try to get in touch with Alan and see if he will give us the Official Ukc answer.

if you strike in during the middle of a vote you are going in for next available and that sure isn't 100. If your dog makes 3 barks before the vote is over it will need struck.

Posted by pamjohnson on 12-30-2019 02:32 PM:

I can see this new rule being used and abused. I sure hope not but I know how far that goes. Nothing like starting out a cast on the wrong foot. No one wants to have to vote. Oh I know it's a necessary evil at times but nobody wants to. It should be cut n dry rule. Instead it will be a Fiasco striking, voting , questioning, tempers and attitude all in a quick unsnap.
It's a poor setup at best.

Posted by benderb4 on 12-30-2019 02:38 PM:

Try pullin that vote on my first struck dog and I will be restruck befor vote is voted with a big ? ahind it
How do you vote minus when other dogs r startin to git strike with it right there to.

Posted by yadkintar on 12-30-2019 02:40 PM:

You guys sure wouldn�t have liked the old rule I came up with minused twice and scratched in 30 yards.

Train ole ratchet jaws to get 50 yards before he rattles his gord and you will be ok.

Tar

Posted by Surveyor on 12-30-2019 02:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
I can see this new rule being used and abused. I sure hope not but I know how far that goes. Nothing like starting out a cast on the wrong foot. No one wants to have to vote. Oh I know it's a necessary evil at times but nobody wants to. It should be cut n dry rule. Instead it will be a Fiasco striking, voting , questioning, tempers and attitude all in a quick unsnap.
It's a poor setup at best.

I agree. It's going to cause some disputes, but end result is in most situations the babbler will still get away with it because the rest of the cast will try to avoid conflict, same as it is now.

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 12-30-2019 07:08 PM:

The only way to make strike points no longer an issue is for all dogs to go in for th

You are ABSOLUTELY correct I AM against any such rule that tends to make silent trailing a desired trait of ANY Hound.

That is a cur trait and should be kept in the cur breed.

And I can see you would be willing to advocate for such a rule (and may very well be right now) since you are trying to convince me that deleting strike points are not as hurtful as misusing them.

That would be like saying taking another one's life is less hurtful than murdering them. It all means the same thing. Dead is Dead and Delete or minus are points you will not be receiving in the plus points column.

You will not change my perspective nor am I gonna change yours, so we will leave it at that and let the arguing begin in just 1 1/2 days on when a dog will receive strike points.

Now back to the original question, LOL

Posted by G.W. Harring on 12-30-2019 09:30 PM:

Re: Re: This rule actually will make it more difficult to minus a dog. In the past a tie vote

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
��..The only way to make strike points no longer an issue is for all dogs to go in for the exact same amount and no babbling rule and just hold dog(s) accountable per the 8 minute rule...��.

IMO, that would take care of a lot of issues Jen.

Now, before I rant, let me say I like an open mouthed dog that IMO uses their mouth right. I prefer what I would describe as a "here, there and yonder" type track dog that never opens in the same place twice and is not affected by what the other dogs are doing. It knows its job and just gets it done, quickly. If it's using a LOT of mouth, it better be covering a LOT of ground while doing it!!
I want to also say that I think that the "intention" of progressive strike points was good, but in reality it only creates a babbling, calling contest, joke.
Maybe because some have confused "striking coon scent" with "barking quickly" and "barking quickly" with tracking ability?? If anyone thinks because their dog barks quickly they are a better track dog or have more drive they may want to give that some more thought.

Although the competition hunts award more points to the dog that "barks" first IMO NOTHING about those "bark points" makes a dog a harder hunter or a better track dog or therefore a better coondog.

It does one thing and one thing only......it just rewards a dog for "barking" first. (And yet we wonder why we have babblers and disagreements and rules to deal with it?? Really??)

Now, are there honest dogs that have REALLY, REALLY cold noses that will open the second they get a whiff of coon...YES THERE ARE!! Because they "bark" first do they hunt harder or are they faster on the track or even a better coondog?? NO!! I've seen a lot of dogs with more nose than brains and their barking produced NOTHING but noise. Can you distinguish the difference from the small percentage that have that ability and a babbler in a cast of 3 strange dogs?? Nope and unfortunately the majority of the time there is NO WAY possible to determine why or what a dog is barking about especially with strange dogs in a competition situation.

Competition Coon Hunting rules should be simple, tree the most amount of coon in the set amount of time with the least amount of mistakes and your packing a winner.

What color your dog is, how loud your dog is, how quick it pees or if it "barks" before the other dogs means NOTHING other than it "barked" first or really had to pizz.

I will go out on a limb here and say they'll be 3 groups:

#1 Those that are actually hunting a NON-babbling dog, what I would describe as an honest coondog. An indifferent style dog, that is hard hunting, has good tracking ability, accurate, and a stay put tree dog ...�they would actually appreciate a level playing field on strike points.

#2 Those that have to pack around a dog that can only win in the hunts by getting first "bark" points because of their other weaknesses will obviously dislike equal strike points and may change what is on the end of their lead.

#3 And to the very, very small percentage that have the "Super Nose Coon Strikers" that smell a coon fart from 3 months ago down wind and the rest of us just have never seen the likes of such a superior dog..... if your hound still "barks first" AND THEN...hunts harder, tracks faster, locates more accurately, and makes less mistakes than the rest of the cast, you'll still win under an equal strike point format and you'll be happy proving you have a superior hound. (And if you end up getting beat consistently without the "first bark point advantage", you'll complain and fit right in with group #2.)

It's not supposed to be that hard.....tree more coon faster than the rest and make less mistakes doing it.

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Posted by yadkintar on 12-30-2019 09:45 PM:

I am beginning to wonder if the dogs have the handlers fooled into believing all that non stop barking is a coon.

I ain�t believing it for one minute.

Or one second either.

Tar

Posted by shadinc on 12-30-2019 10:20 PM:

Re: The only way to make strike points no longer an issue is for all dogs to go in for th

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
You are ABSOLUTELY correct I AM against any such rule that tends to make silent trailing a desired trait of ANY Hound.

That is a cur trait and should be kept in the cur breed.

And I can see you would be willing to advocate for such a rule (and may very well be right now) since you are trying to convince me that deleting strike points are not as hurtful as misusing them.

That would be like saying taking another one's life is less hurtful than murdering them. It all means the same thing. Dead is Dead and Delete or minus are points you will not be receiving in the plus points column.

You will not change my perspective nor am I gonna change yours, so we will leave it at that and let the arguing begin in just 1 1/2 days on when a dog will receive strike points.

Now back to the original question, LOL

I'm not very savvy on rules, but I am good in math. There's a difference in delete and minus,

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