UKC Forums - UKC's Striking Rule

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Posted by berger on 02-22-2019 12:18 PM:

UKC's Striking Rule

My question is why did UKC go to a 1 minute rule on the strike? Was there a problem with dogs excite barking, loose barking, dog tracking barking or babbling when turned loose that they needed to give handlers a minute before striking their dogs. What was the purpose of the 1 minute Rule? Is the 1 minute rule working? Or is it just making it harder for the judge to judge the cast and that he needs to use his/her speculation/opinion for the rule.

Now is the time to change this Rule and simplify judging making it easier for the judge and cast members.

If dog/dogs continuously bark in the first 15 seconds each time they are cast only 25 points will be available for strike to all dogs cast. If not then all strike points will be available and dogs will be awarded available strike points ect. 100, 75, 50, 25.
With this you could eliminate the babbling rule. and it would simplify judging and make the judges job so much easier.

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Posted by jkidd1 on 02-22-2019 12:32 PM:

So if I have an honest 100 strike dog n I happen to draw a dog that's liked to run off barking for the first 15 seconds every drop, I've got to be punished too and go in for 25??? That's gona make me pretty unhappy when my dog has 1st n 1st on several coon but I was robbed of 75 strike each time and I don't make it in at some big hunt because of it.

On another note, I go to a lot of hunts and I just don't see all this babbling and loose barking that always being talked, if it wasn't for this forum I'd never even know this problem exists.

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Posted by River Birch Run on 02-22-2019 12:54 PM:

Leave it alone. Where I live it's more common then not to strike a coon off the tailgate. If coon arent moving that well we take care of the babblers by cutting across a big field 200 to 300 yrds before they get to the woods pretty cut and dry.

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Posted by Dogwhisper on 02-22-2019 01:00 PM:

U assume all dogs in a cast babble......so u wanna equalize the strike points.
Penalize the struk dogs only !
I agree the 1 min. rule should be addressed.
But not as u stated
I believe the 1 min. rule was to allow dogs an xcitement
allowance, especially dogs that were hauled for long periods of time to reach a hunt.
With today's ecollars there really shouldn't be much babbling going on, babbling dogs in a cast ought be scratched rite off the bat.
This will solve that problem .
The way it is now babblers are welcomed .. and not much one can do about it .

Posted by johnny reb on 02-22-2019 01:22 PM:

River Birch Run how does cutting dogs 2-300 yards across a field to the timber determine a dog is babbling? Coons cross fields and feed in fields all the time.

Posted by JiM on 02-22-2019 04:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jkidd1

On another note, I go to a lot of hunts and I just don't see all this babbling and loose barking that always being talked, if it wasn't for this forum I'd never even know this problem exists.

No truer words ever spoken.

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Posted by JiM on 02-22-2019 04:29 PM:

Re: UKC's Striking Rule

quote:
Originally posted by berger
My question is why did UKC go to a 1 minute rule ?.

My guess would be that UKC wanted to relieve their judges of having to make a call that they knew was going to start a serious, extremely unpleasant and sometimes bloody argument every single time they enforced the rule. So they made a change that gave their judges a way out without completely eliminating the rule against babbling.

Posted by J I Allen on 02-22-2019 07:34 PM:

Under the old rule didn't they have 3 minutes before you had to strike your dog and only on the first drop. I'm thinking back in the time of 3 hour hunts.

Posted by Rip on 02-22-2019 08:42 PM:

There were way, way, way less babblers back when they had 3 minutes the first drop then nothing thereafter.

It was much easier for the babbler to get what it deserved when you could throw the light on it and watch it babble and they had to strike it on or before the 3rd bark every drop.

Now they are 1/4 mile in before the minute is up and the babbler gets away with it because it is difficult to determine that the dog is indeed still babbling.

The excuse for making the rule was they didn't want to punish young dogs that may get excited and bark a little.

What it turned in to was one minute for the handler to allow the dog to get far enough away to get undeserved strike points

No need for any elaborate system, just go back to the old rule with no grace period for striking after the first drop and the babblers would drop real quick.

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Posted by Ricochet17 on 02-22-2019 11:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by River Birch Run
Leave it alone. Where I live it's more common then not to strike a coon off the tailgate. If coon arent moving that well we take care of the babblers by cutting across a big field 200 to 300 yrds before they get to the woods pretty cut and dry.

I couldn't like this post anymore!

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Posted by blueticker on 02-23-2019 12:15 AM:

It's an easy 100 points each drop if they dont shut up. Open quick and often. Drive a deer 3/4 mile drop off and slam a coon. Winner !!!

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Posted by joey on 02-23-2019 02:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
There were way, way, way less babblers back when they had 3 minutes the first drop then nothing thereafter.

It was much easier for the babbler to get what it deserved when you could throw the light on it and watch it babble and they had to strike it on or before the 3rd bark every drop.

Now they are 1/4 mile in before the minute is up and the babbler gets away with it because it is difficult to determine that the dog is indeed still babbling.

The excuse for making the rule was they didn't want to punish young dogs that may get excited and bark a little.

What it turned in to was one minute for the handler to allow the dog to get far enough away to get undeserved strike points

No need for any elaborate system, just go back to the old rule with no grace period for striking after the first drop and the babblers would drop real quick.

I agree that there are more of them but I disagree that UKC min rule is the cause. I'm going to blame it more on the other KC. The way they are set up a first and first dog on the first dump has it in the bag unless it draws minus. That in my mind is what drove the babbling dog. The more popular the 1 hour hunt got the more prevalent the babbling dog became.

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Posted by Rip on 02-23-2019 03:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
I agree that there are more of them but I disagree that UKC min rule is the cause. I'm going to blame it more on the other KC. The way they are set up a first and first dog on the first dump has it in the bag unless it draws minus. That in my mind is what drove the babbling dog. The more popular the 1 hour hunt got the more prevalent the babbling dog became.

I see your point and lets say that is 100% correct. No matter what the other KC did though if we didn't have the one minute grace period every drop those babblers would get what they deserved in UKC so the topic would only be up for discussion for the other KC because when they came to UKC they would either have the babbling fixed or get what they deserve and not be able to win in UKC. If they can't win then they wouldn't participate.

I bet if UKC got rid of the minute tomorrow within 1 year the amount of babblers participating in UKC would be cut in half or better.

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Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 05:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
I see your point and lets say that is 100% correct. No matter what the other KC did though if we didn't have the one minute grace period every drop those babblers would get what they deserved in UKC so the topic would only be up for discussion for the other KC because when they came to UKC they would either have the babbling fixed or get what they deserve and not be able to win in UKC. If they can't win then they wouldn't participate.

I bet if UKC got rid of the minute tomorrow within 1 year the amount of babblers participating in UKC would be cut in half or better.

Joey is correct.
Rip I see what your saying. The problem is I want those guys to be able to come and participate. I don't want to drive them off we need more participation. We need rules that let's everybody play, We now have 1hr hunts in UKC we also can have slam events which is a cash pay out to the winners. The problem is more and more dogs are being trained to bark when you cut them loose and not shut up till they are treed or until another dog strikes a coon. What this does is gets dogs to race into the country and when they finally stop racing because a dog does strike a track they are already 5 to 700yds in there. Then all dogs split up and this is why it takes bigger and bigger areas to have a hunt because none of them start hunting till they are half way through the country. They are trained to bark and run then they are trained to split tree. If there wasn't and advantage to have and automatic strike dog folks would find out it wouldn't take near as much country to hunt a hunt. This is the year for rule changes, no reason to wait for 3yrs to get it fixed. The old rule will not work, scratching dogs is not an ideal option, we want dogs to show up and compete, we don't want winners because dogs got scratched.

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Posted by Kenneth Tavares on 02-23-2019 05:01 AM:

AKC has the best strike rule!

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Tone it down guys, or they will delete another good topic...

Posted by Rip on 02-23-2019 05:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by berger
Joey is correct.
Rip I see what your saying. The problem is I want those guys to be able to come and participate. I don't want to drive them off we need more participation. We need rules that let's everybody play, We now have 1hr hunts in UKC we also can have slam events which is a cash pay out to the winners. The problem is more and more dogs are being trained to bark when you cut them loose and not shut up till they are treed or until another dog strikes a coon. What this does is gets dogs to race into the country and when they finally stop racing because a dog does strike a track they are already 5 to 700yds in there. Then all dogs split up and this is why it takes bigger and bigger areas to have a hunt because none of them start hunting till they are half way through the country. They are trained to bark and run then they are trained to split tree. If there wasn't and advantage to have and automatic strike dog folks would find out it wouldn't take near as much country to hunt a hunt. This is the year for rule changes, no reason to wait for 3yrs to get it fixed. The old rule will not work, scratching dogs is not an ideal option, we want dogs to show up and compete, we don't want winners because dogs got scratched.

They are man made, they can be man broke. Don't take long to stop that babblin and if there is no advantage then they would still compete they just wouldn't bring a babbler.

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Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 05:11 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jkidd1
So if I have an honest 100 strike dog n I happen to draw a dog that's liked to run off barking for the first 15 seconds every drop, I've got to be punished too and go in for 25??? That's gona make me pretty unhappy when my dog has 1st n 1st on several coon but I was robbed of 75 strike each time and I don't make it in at some big hunt because of it.

On another note, I go to a lot of hunts and I just don't see all this babbling and loose barking that always being talked, if it wasn't for this forum I'd never even know this problem exists.

You are contradicting yourself on your statements. First response is you are worried about loosing your hundred strike if you draw a dog that runs off barking for the first 15seconds. Then you say you never see it so why would you even be worried about loosing your strike points. Since you never see this then the rule would have absolutely no affect in your outcome. So which is it are you going to loose 75 strike points in every turn loose or have you absolutely never seen this happen in the hunts? LOL

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Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 05:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth Tavares
AKC has the best strike rule!

What is that strike rule??????

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Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 05:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
They are man made, they can be man broke. Don't take long to stop that babblin and if there is no advantage then they would still compete they just wouldn't bring a babbler.

They are not going to break them when another kennel club has bigger purses. They just won't show up. What we want is for them to show up and participate. UKC needs those 20 to 35yr old hunters to hunt in their hunts and so do the clubs.

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Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 05:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by River Birch Run
Leave it alone. Where I live it's more common then not to strike a coon off the tailgate. If coon arent moving that well we take care of the babblers by cutting across a big field 200 to 300 yrds before they get to the woods pretty cut and dry.

If those dogs are still in that open field in the minute they have a lot bigger problem then babbling!!!!!!!

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Posted by Dogwhisper on 02-23-2019 05:24 AM:

Handlers r training their dogs to babble and get deep and split... Y is that ?
Cuz it fits the rules.
If babblers r scratched that dog won't be back ,the handler will be back with another one that fits the rules...No babblers allowed.
Manageing a set of rules out of fear of "lack of participation" is
a desperation.

Posted by joey on 02-23-2019 06:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
I see your point and lets say that is 100% correct. No matter what the other KC did though if we didn't have the one minute grace period every drop those babblers would get what they deserved in UKC so the topic would only be up for discussion for the other KC because when they came to UKC they would either have the babbling fixed or get what they deserve and not be able to win in UKC. If they can't win then they wouldn't participate.

I bet if UKC got rid of the minute tomorrow within 1 year the amount of babblers participating in UKC would be cut in half or better.

I'm afraid what you would actually see is the amount of dogs entered in UKC cut in half. There is another game in town they will not fix their dog they will just take their ball and go play over there. It used to be everyone titled their dog in UKC no matter what. Anymore these guys don't even care if they are UKC registered.

Making these guys change their dog is not the answer. They are not going to loose their advantage in the other KC to hunt UKC. The only thing you can do is take away their advantage when the do hunt UKC.

Posted by jkidd1 on 02-23-2019 08:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by berger
You are contradicting yourself on your statements. First response is you are worried about loosing your hundred strike if you draw a dog that runs off barking for the first 15seconds. Then you say you never see it so why would you even be worried about loosing your strike points. Since you never see this then the rule would have absolutely no affect in your outcome. So which is it are you going to loose 75 strike points in every turn loose or have you absolutely never seen this happen in the hunts? LOL

I’m saying I don’t see all the loose barking/babbling dogs others claim to see at every hunt. Also saying if it was a problem, I don’t think busting the honest strike dogs points down would be the way to handle it.

Posted by Dogwhisper on 02-23-2019 11:57 AM:

One babbling dog in a cast or at a hunt is one to many !

Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 12:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jkidd1
I’m saying I don’t see all the loose barking/babbling dogs others claim to see at every hunt. Also saying if it was a problem, I don’t think busting the honest strike dogs points down would be the way to handle it.

UKC now has 1hr hunts, all you have to do is look at another kennel club and see how the strike points has compounded this problem with 1hr hunts. It will get worse if you don't do something now. Your honest first strike dog will be a 4th strike dog. 20yrs ago I had a automatic strike dog but with and electric collar I was able to eliminate that automatic strike dog, she still was most often a 1st strike dog but she just didn't bark leaving you with or without company. A couple years ago I had another I never broke her from it. She didn't do it every turn loose but she did it probably 70% of the time not once did I ever have anyone question her babbling once I struck her. What I posted above does not penalized dogs for barking excited when you collar them up and open up a few times when cut loose. This would only happen if a dog/dogs Bark CONSISTENTLY for the whole 15 seconds.

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