UKC Forums - How would you score?

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-11-2018 01:58 PM:

How would you score?

While Judging a cast this past Saturday I Had a tough call to make.

Last drop not much time left. Cast 3 dogs lose. 2 of the dogs were struck in at around 38 seconds into the minute about 50 yards away. Both barked 2 times. Then quiet. I let a minute pass. Then informed the 2 handlers that they needed to show a track or be minused for babbling. Another minute went by and they opened back up about 250 yards away. I stated they were minused. One wanted a vote and of course they voted to not minus them.

Would a MOH side with the cast vote in this case or the judge?

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Posted by JiM on 07-11-2018 02:14 PM:

The surest thing in the world is that you can never predict how any MOH will rule on a judgement call such as babbling. I honestly think his/her ruling will depend more on what they think of you and what they think of the others as than the case you make.
With that said, in a scenerio as described above, I'd say the judge made the right call. I'd also bet if he knows he right, he takes it back. If he's trying to shade someone, he let's it go.

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Posted by yadkintar on 07-11-2018 02:18 PM:

Re: How would you score?

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
While Judging a cast this past Saturday I Had a tough call to make.

Last drop not much time left. Cast 3 dogs lose. 2 of the dogs were struck in at around 38 seconds into the minute about 50 yards away. Both barked 2 times. Then quiet. I let a minute pass. Then informed the 2 handlers that they needed to show a track or be minused for babbling. Another minute went by and they opened back up about 250 yards away. I stated they were minused. One wanted a vote and of course they voted to not minus them.

Would a MOH side with the cast vote in this case or the judge?

I don't like a babbler. That being said down here in this thick stuff I wouldn't call that babbling jmo.

Tar

Posted by JiM on 07-11-2018 02:53 PM:

Re: Re: How would you score?

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
I don't like a babbler. That being said down here in this thick stuff I wouldn't call that babbling jmo.

Tar

So it's thick enough that a dog can smell enough track to open up and not smell it again for 250 yards...........and that's just a continuation of the same track? Not bloody likely.

One huge difference between UKC's and PKC's babbling rule. PKC's rule requires the dog to move the track out. UKC's rule DOES NOT! It just says "struck where no track is apparent". UKC makes no requirement to move that track anywhere.
Another Bluetick rule.😅

Posted by yadkintar on 07-11-2018 03:04 PM:

Look at your watch Jim 38 seconds before they barked and 50 yrds is plenty far enough away to find a coon and then just a couple barks and move out I don't like a babbling dog but that don't fit the mold to me.

Tar

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-11-2018 03:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Look at your watch Jim 38 seconds before they barked and 50 yrds is plenty far enough away to find a coon and then just a couple barks and move out I don't like a babbling dog but that don't fit the mold to me.

Tar

So what is babbling then ?

Posted by JiM on 07-11-2018 03:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Look at your watch Jim 38 seconds before they barked and 50 yrds is plenty far enough away to find a coon and then just a couple barks and move out I don't like a babbling dog but that don't fit the mold to me.

Tar

Sorry Tar, where did I get the 250 yards. I agree.
And again, if we are talking UKC's rule, then they dont have to move it anyway.

Posted by JiM on 07-11-2018 03:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
So what is babbling then ?

UKC defines babbling very specifically. It is striking a dog where no track is apparent. Total judgement. Nothing else.

Posted by yadkintar on 07-11-2018 03:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
So what is babbling then ?

Well they got a minute before you have to strike them most are rattling every breath before then and by time the minute is up they are deep and you can't do anything about it. Your hunt describes our pleasure hunts right now we turn loose in the plumbs or grapes the get struck where they been feeding before dark bad tracks and they have to drift out to pick up the track. I have hunted with some well trained babblers and your case don't fit the mold to me.

Tar

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-11-2018 03:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
UKC defines babbling very specifically. It is striking a dog where no track is apparent. Total judgement. Nothing else.

I know how they define it Jim, but I want to know how tar would judge babbling?

It's my thought that anytime you strike right off the bat you are rolling the dice. For one thing it just doesn't look good when they open quick and then shut up until in a totally different area. Most times you know your dog and you know weather your dog likes to bark out of excitement or if it rarely ever barks without purpose.

This was the last drop and dogs hadn't babbled the first 3 but that to me is irrelevant. So many hunters think babbling is dogs barking out of excitement as soon as turned loose and it is.

But UKC suggest babbling can be judged anytime during the cast where dogs are struck where no track is evident.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-11-2018 03:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Well they got a minute before you have to strike them most are rattling every breath before then and by time the minute is up they are deep and you can't do anything about it. Your hunt describes our pleasure hunts right now we turn loose in the plumbs or grapes the get struck where they been feeding before dark bad tracks and they have to drift out to pick up the track. I have hunted with some well trained babblers and your case don't fit the mold to me.

Tar

If you are being judged by me and you strike your dog right off weather a old bad track or not and it covers a large area before showing that track again I can promise I will minus you everytime. That's the risk you took when striking right off.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 07-11-2018 03:29 PM:

If 2 dogs go out and aren't barking off the lead and then just bark 2 times and shut up, then why did they open? Sounds to me like they barked at something. I would say that "a track was evident". Babbling is babbling. Time, distance, number of barks really has nothing to do with it.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-11-2018 03:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
If 2 dogs go out and aren't barking off the lead and then just bark 2 times and shut up, then why did they open? Sounds to me like they barked at something. I would say that "a track was evident". Babbling is babbling. Time, distance, number of barks really has nothing to do with it.

More old school logic where the only way babbling can be judged is when they bark off the lead...

Posted by sleepy head on 07-11-2018 03:50 PM:

Trevor, would you of made the same call if they would of struck after the minute?

Posted by JiM on 07-11-2018 04:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
Trevor, would you of made the same call if they would of struck after the minute?

Nobody but Donald Trump has balls that big.

Posted by Blaze2014 on 07-11-2018 04:10 PM:

Benefit to dog. Hard to answer when your not on the cast.

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Posted by B-52 Bomber on 07-11-2018 04:19 PM:

Sleepy Head good question. What if it was a minute and 38 seconds and the stuck in 200 yards away and didn�t bark again for another 250? To me two barks isn�t babbling but then again each judge is different.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-11-2018 04:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
Trevor, would you of made the same call if they would of struck after the minute?

No I would not have. Determining babbling is tough to impossible once dogs get some distance away. But if a handler has the nerve to strike right off he deserves what he gets. Good or bad.

I encourage any of you to enter a hunt this week in either kennel club and strike your dog right off. If it doesn't open back up and prove a track in a reasonable distance let us know how you faired. I judge almost every cast I'm on and I try to follow the rules and judge with integrity but there's always room for improvement.

Posted by sleepy head on 07-11-2018 04:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Nobody but Donald Trump has balls that big.

MAGA balls

Posted by va.b&t on 07-11-2018 04:46 PM:

I thought not having to strike your dog on or before the third bark with in the first minute was a rule added in ukc to protect everyones babbling dogs. I know dogs that don't open but once every couple hundred yards or so you going to minus him because he hit a track under the minute.

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Posted by sleepy head on 07-11-2018 04:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
No I would not have. Determining babbling is tough to impossible once dogs get some distance away. But if a handler has the nerve to strike right off he deserves what he gets. Good or bad.

I encourage any of you to enter a hunt this week in either kennel club and strike your dog right off. If it doesn't open back up and prove a track in a reasonable distance let us know how you faired. I judge almost every cast I'm on and I try to follow the rules and judge with integrity but there's always room for improvement.

If you wouldn't minus after the minute in the exact same situation other than the the time. No reason to minus before the minute either

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-11-2018 05:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
If you wouldn't minus after the minute in the exact same situation other than the the time. No reason to minus before the minute either

Let me know how many times you've seen a dog minused for babbling after the minute?

Not striking before the minute is a courtesy. If the dogs are legitimately struck it should be very obvious to all on the cast and there should be no questions.

Striking right off just to have your hound move on out to new area is simply put a form of cheating. Trying to gain undeserved points is exactly what it is. Trying to gain an unfair advantage and I don't consider it sportsmanlike in any way. Most get ticked drawing the ones that leave barking and never shut up, at least with those types you know exactly what you're getting.

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 07-11-2018 05:26 PM:

other drops

This wasn't the first drop off had they been babbling might affect my answer

Posted by joey on 07-11-2018 06:41 PM:

Trevor, I would have given them minus also. I think you have seen me do it. I would do it after the minute also if I can see the dogs and know what they are doing. Head up running each other barking = babbling. If they were in the woods and I could not tell what they were doing all i can do is apply the 8. I will minus a dog for babbling at anytime but I need to be able to see them in most cases, but that's not how it has to be done. Its just how I prefer to do it.

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Posted by yadkintar on 07-11-2018 07:17 PM:

Boy Joey your ruff at 38 seconds two barks means they are babbling and at 250 they picked up the track that means they only was quiet 200 yrds my kind of dog drift that son of a gun don't woller lol.

Tar

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