UKC Forums - This Should Be Good

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-- This Should Be Good (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928506433)

Posted by Dale Yates on 07-09-2018 05:27 PM:

This Should Be Good

2 DOG CAST, MOH ASSIGNS JUDGE AND THE HANDLERS WALK OUTSIDE. HUNTING JUDGE/HANDLER IS PREPARING TO LOAD HIS DOG INTO OTHER HANDLERS TRUCK. HANDLER GOES INSIDE CLUBHOUSE, LEAVING HIS DOG TIED TO TRUCK. AS JUDGE/HANDLER APPROACHES TRUCK, OTHER HANDLERS DOG BREAKS FREE FROM TRUCK AND RUSHES TOWARD HIS DOG SHOWING AGGRESSION.

PS I KNOW WHAT THE RULE SAYS.

Posted by joey on 07-09-2018 06:00 PM:

Re: This Should Be Good

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Yates
2 DOG CAST, MOH ASSIGNS JUDGE AND THE HANDLERS WALK OUTSIDE. HUNTING JUDGE/HANDLER IS PREPARING TO LOAD HIS DOG INTO OTHER HANDLERS TRUCK. HANDLER GOES INSIDE CLUBHOUSE, LEAVING HIS DOG TIED TO TRUCK. AS JUDGE/HANDLER APPROACHES TRUCK, OTHER HANDLERS DOG BREAKS FREE FROM TRUCK AND RUSHES TOWARD HIS DOG SHOWING AGGRESSION.

PS I KNOW WHAT THE RULE SAYS.

Nothing happens if he didn't jump on the dog. If he did he is scratched.

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Posted by Todd_Miller on 07-09-2018 08:17 PM:

Dont it also have to happen during hunt time?

Posted by Dale Yates on 07-09-2018 08:25 PM:

Dont it also have to happen during hunt time?

WHEN DOES THE JUDGES AUTHORITY START???

Posted by Dale Yates on 07-09-2018 08:27 PM:

Nothing happens if he didn't jump on the dog. If he did he is scratched.

EVEN WHEN ONLY ONE PERSON IS WITNESS?

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 07-09-2018 08:57 PM:

yep

If that one person is the judge than yeah your dog is scratched. Hunt time doesn't matter in that situation. As soon as the judge is given the card though the time it is returned to the moh. Same for unsportsmanlike behavior, that's what I am sure ukc will say unless they have changed policy lately. The rule states during the authority of the judge.

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 07-09-2018 09:08 PM:

Re: Re: This Should Be Good

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Nothing happens if he didn't jump on the dog. If he did he is scratched.

I don't know that to be true. It says for fighting or attempting to fight than references definitions 18 attempting to fight showing aggressive behavior, interfering with another dog. Doesn't say wait until you have to take the other dog to the vet, than scratch the mean dog.

Posted by Dale Yates on 07-09-2018 10:12 PM:

Re: yep

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
If that one person is the judge than yeah your dog is scratched. Hunt time doesn't matter in that situation. As soon as the judge is given the card though the time it is returned to the moh. Same for unsportsmanlike behavior, that's what I am sure ukc will say unless they have changed policy lately. The rule states during the authority of the judge.

EXACTLY

Posted by Dale Yates on 07-09-2018 10:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd_Miller
Dont it also have to happen during hunt time?

ANYTIME AFTER THE JUDGE RECEIVES THE SCORECARD.

Posted by shadinc on 07-09-2018 10:51 PM:

I wouldn't be too quick to judge a dogs "meanness" when he's tied to his owner's truck. A lot of dogs are protective of property.

Posted by Dale Yates on 07-09-2018 10:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
I wouldn't be too quick to judge a dogs "meanness" when he's tied to his owner's truck. A lot of dogs are protective of property.

MIGHT BE A LONG OR SHORT NIGHT IF THEY RIDE IN SAME TRUCK

Posted by shadinc on 07-09-2018 11:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Yates
MIGHT BE A LONG OR SHORT NIGHT IF THEY RIDE IN SAME TRUCK

This is where we would use common sense.

Posted by Dale Yates on 07-09-2018 11:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
This is where we would use common sense.

SHADINC, PLEASE DON'T THINK I'M TRYING TO BE DIFFICULT, BUT WHEN WE USE COMMON SENSE, DO WE ACKNOWLEDGE THE ONES THAT WROTE THE RULES USED COMMON SENSE AND FOLLOW THEM, OR DO WE JUST MAKE IT UP AS WE GO? I ENJOY LISTENING TO PEOPLE AS THEY QUOTE THE "ALIEN RULES". YOU KNOW THE ONES THAT DON'T EXIST. I REALLY ENJOY WHEN SOMEONE SAYS "UNDER THE CANOPY OF THE TREE".

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 07-10-2018 12:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Yates
SHADINC, PLEASE DON'T THINK I'M TRYING TO BE DIFFICULT, BUT WHEN WE USE COMMON SENSE, DO WE ACKNOWLEDGE THE ONES THAT WROTE THE RULES USED COMMON SENSE AND FOLLOW THEM, OR DO WE JUST MAKE IT UP AS WE GO? I ENJOY LISTENING TO PEOPLE AS THEY QUOTE THE "ALIEN RULES". YOU KNOW THE ONES THAT DON'T EXIST. I REALLY ENJOY WHEN SOMEONE SAYS "UNDER THE CANOPY OF THE TREE".

Dale I hope you don't think Im trying to pick a fight but yes common sense does come into play. That is why somethings are left up to the judge, but can be overturned by a majority vote. now then as far as the "ALIEN RULES" around here I call them "that's the way we've always done it" rules. If it is a rule it is and if it's not it's not. I covered this topic in another post about time outs. UKC will tell you this is why it is important for the MOH to appoint honest judges. My thought would be if the dog has a problem the handler most likely knows it, but if he thought he got had than he got lucky. Id be happy to know what kind of judge I had before leaving the club house instead of driving and cutting loose just to get cheated.

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 07-10-2018 12:22 AM:

Re: Dont it also have to happen during hunt time?

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Yates
WHEN DOES THE JUDGES AUTHORITY START???

Rule 9 a authority of the judge begins when he is officially designated and receives the score card. The authority of the judge ceases when the scorecard is turned in to the moh/hd.

Posted by joey on 07-10-2018 01:45 AM:

Re: Re: Re: This Should Be Good

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
I don't know that to be true. It says for fighting or attempting to fight than references definitions 18 attempting to fight showing aggressive behavior, interfering with another dog. Doesn't say wait until you have to take the other dog to the vet, than scratch the mean dog.

For attempting to fight they have to interfere with the dog. Cant interfere with a dog on a leash. So the dog has to actually make contact with the dog to be scratched.

Posted by B-52 Bomber on 07-10-2018 03:54 PM:

Rule 6b is pretty clear. Should be scratched and reported.

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Posted by Dale Yates on 07-10-2018 04:41 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: This Should Be Good

quote:
Originally posted by joey
For attempting to fight they have to interfere with the dog. Cant interfere with a dog on a leash. So the dog has to actually make contact with the dog to be scratched.

WRONG! GROWLING IS SHOWING AGGRESSION, JUST LIKE IF YOU GET IN ARGUMENT, AND THREATEN SOMEONE, YOU ARE SHOWING AGGRESSION. DON'T HAVE TO HIT THEM TO GO TO JAIL.

Posted by Rip on 07-10-2018 05:12 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This Should Be Good

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Yates
WRONG! GROWLING IS SHOWING AGGRESSION, JUST LIKE IF YOU GET IN ARGUMENT, AND THREATEN SOMEONE, YOU ARE SHOWING AGGRESSION. DON'T HAVE TO HIT THEM TO GO TO JAIL.

Respectfully you are wrong sir.

Yes growling is aggression but they must either 1. Fight or 2. Attempt to fight. According to UKC the official definition of attempting to fight the dog must show aggression AND interfere. If he doesn't interfere he can show as much aggression as he wants. It is NOT a scratch until he does both or until he actually makes contact and fights.

That's the rule.

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Posted by joey on 07-10-2018 05:14 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This Should Be Good

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Yates
WRONG! GROWLING IS SHOWING AGGRESSION, JUST LIKE IF YOU GET IN ARGUMENT, AND THREATEN SOMEONE, YOU ARE SHOWING AGGRESSION. DON'T HAVE TO HIT THEM TO GO TO JAIL.

You should read the rule real careful before you get all excited. You can only scratch them for aggression if there is also interference. You can not interfere with a dogs ability to hunt or tree when they are on the leash.

Posted by Dale Yates on 07-10-2018 06:16 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This Should Be Good

quote:
Originally posted by joey
You should read the rule real careful before you get all excited. You can only scratch them for aggression if there is also interference. You can not interfere with a dogs ability to hunt or tree when they are on the leash.

INTERFERE WITH WHAT?

VERBATIM:

1) SHOWING AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR AND 2) INTERFERE WITH ANOTHER DOG(S) DURING AUTHORITY OF JUDGE.

SO, DID HE INTERFERE WITH THE DOG'S ABILITY TO PROCEED TO TRUCK AND LOAD? DID HE INTERFERE WITH DOG'S ABILITY TO TRAVEL UNMOLESTED TO THE HUNTING AREA?

SOME FOLK THINK IT HAS TO BE DURING HUNT TIME, WHEN THIS IS NOT THE CASE. WHAT IF THEY HAVE TO BE LOADED IN BOX TOGETHER?

AND I'M NOT GETTING EXCITED.

Posted by JiM on 07-10-2018 06:41 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This Should Be Good

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Yates
INTERFERE WITH WHAT?

VERBATIM:

1) SHOWING AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR AND 2) INTERFERE WITH ANOTHER DOG(S) DURING AUTHORITY OF JUDGE.

SO, DID HE INTERFERE WITH THE DOG'S ABILITY TO PROCEED TO TRUCK AND LOAD? DID HE INTERFERE WITH DOG'S ABILITY TO TRAVEL UNMOLESTED TO THE HUNTING AREA?

SOME FOLK THINK IT HAS TO BE DURING HUNT TIME, WHEN THIS IS NOT THE CASE. WHAT IF THEY HAVE TO BE LOADED IN BOX TOGETHER?

AND I'M NOT GETTING EXCITED.

......I bet this guys a ball on a cast. Don't confuse me with the facts, my minds made up.

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Posted by Dale Yates on 07-10-2018 07:00 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This Should Be Good

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
......I bet this guys a ball on a cast. Don't confuse me with the facts, my minds made up.

FACTS

THIS IS MY POINT. SEEMS FACTS ARE NOT FACTS. NOT MANY EXPERTS KNOW THE RULES, INCLUDING JUDGES AND MOH'S. FROM A CURRENT MOH AND 5 GENTLEMEN WITH 50+ YEARS EACH OF COON HUNTING, WE HAD 2 INCLUDING THE MOH THAT HAVE GREAT DIFFICULTY WITH ASSIMILATION.

I PARTICULARLY LOVE WHEN THEY "QUOTE" UNDER THE CANOPY OF THE TREE. SOUNDS SOPHISTICATED, BUT NOT IN THE BOOK.

THE POINT OF THIS POST IS TO SHOW JUST HOW MANY MISINTERPRET THE RULE BOOK.

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 07-10-2018 07:12 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This Should Be Good

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Yates
.

THE POINT OF THIS POST IS TO SHOW JUST HOW MANY MISINTERPRET THE RULE BOOK.

Best example I've seen today. But I'm afraid you're on the wrong side of it.

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Posted by joey on 07-10-2018 07:18 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This Should Be Good

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Yates
FACTS

THE POINT OF THIS POST IS TO SHOW JUST HOW MANY MISINTERPRET THE RULE BOOK.

You just misinterpreted the rules, a dog can be scratched from the time the judge receives the card until he turns it in. You have that part correct but in your example the dog can not be scratched.

(b) For fighting or attempting to fight* during the authority of the Judge. When the
aggressive dog is known, scratch the aggressor only. If not known, scratch dogs
involved. Withdrawing to avoid dog being reported for fighting is not permitted.

Attempting to Fight: 1) Showing aggressive behavior and 2) interfering with
another dog(s) during the authority of the Judge.

They are not talking about loading in the truck. They are talking about hunting and treeing.

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