UKC Forums - Heard it But Didn't See It -Dog Fight

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-- Heard it But Didn't See It -Dog Fight (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928505751)

Posted by Allen / UKC on 06-22-2018 09:22 PM:

Heard it But Didn't See It -Dog Fight

During the hunt, the judge acknowledges (he hears it) that they have an obvious dog fight in progress. They are the only two dogs at the tree, but the judge is not within sight to see which of the two dogs started the fight. Which of the following applies to this situation?

1. Nothing can be done if the judge did not see the actual fight.

2. Nothing can be done if the judge doesn't see who started the fight.

3. The judge must, in some reasonable manner, decide who the aggressor is and then scratch and report that dog.

4. Scratch and report both dogs for fighting.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-22-2018 11:04 PM:

Do you want to know what we think should be done or what UKC's official ruling/policy is?
Why didn't you ask a hard one like aggresive behavior?

Posted by 4play on 06-22-2018 11:21 PM:

4 both are gone to truck

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Posted by Black Ash Bawl on 06-22-2018 11:29 PM:

newbie

unfortunately 4

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Posted by joey on 06-23-2018 01:26 AM:

Does he know where the other dogs in the cast are? Can it be proven that there are only 2 at the tree when the dog fight is heard? Because that info changes the answer.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-23-2018 01:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
,..... Can it be proven....

Oh my goodness, here comes the lawyering.

Do you want to make it interesting? What if there are 3 dogs treeing and called treed and a fight breaks out but stops before you get to the tree?

Posted by joey on 06-23-2018 02:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, here comes the lawyering.

Do you want to make it interesting? What if there are 3 dogs treeing and called treed and a fight breaks out but stops before you get to the tree?

That one is not hard at all. There is nothing you can do. By proven I mean are the other dogs heard running or treeing somewhere else.

Posted by myhosss on 06-23-2018 02:26 AM:

FIGHTING Dogs

Judge SNATCHERS YOUR DOG THEN HE CAN WIN HIS CAST AND EAT BREAKFAST IN THE MORNING.DONE SEEN IT.SEEN IT ALL.NO MORE FOR ME.

Posted by Larry D Walker on 06-23-2018 02:28 AM:

No Harm No Foul

Score the tree and move on...

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Posted by Doug Terrell on 06-23-2018 02:35 AM:

Judge said Must have been a coyote come in on them and try to run them of the tree. 🤔

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Posted by Rip on 06-23-2018 03:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
That one is not hard at all. There is nothing you can do. By proven I mean are the other dogs heard running or treeing somewhere else.

I am fairly sure UKC has ruled that if the judge is sure based on voice they can scratch both dogs. The reasoning was if you can judge them on their voice and much of the judging is done by hearing then if he hears enough in the fight to determine that 1. There was a fight and 2. Who is involved then he can scratch them.

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Posted by RJ Burks on 06-23-2018 04:13 AM:

Re: No Harm No Foul

quote:
Originally posted by Larry D Walker
Score the tree and move on...

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Posted by joey on 06-23-2018 08:46 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
I am fairly sure UKC has ruled that if the judge is sure based on voice they can scratch both dogs. The reasoning was if you can judge them on their voice and much of the judging is done by hearing then if he hears enough in the fight to determine that 1. There was a fight and 2. Who is involved then he can scratch them.

What they ruled was that if you can be absolutely certain that those two are the only ones there they can be scratched. If a third dog is there then you can not or you don't know where the rest of the dogs are you can not. A dog does not have to be barking to be fighting.

Posted by rghnd123 on 06-23-2018 09:56 AM:

Fighting

If the agressor is known scratch the agressor. Of the aggressor is not known scratch both, per the night hunt rules.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-23-2018 12:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
That one is not hard at all. There is nothing you can do.....

Oh my goodness, the dogs fight and there is nothing that you can do? I thought that the rule said scratch all dogs involved? If you don't know or can't see then everybody gets scratched. This isn't one of those "give them the benefit of the doubt" rules.

Posted by Rip on 06-23-2018 02:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, the dogs fight and there is nothing that you can do? I thought that the rule said scratch all dogs involved? If you don't know or can't see then everybody gets scratched. This isn't one of those "give them the benefit of the doubt" rules.

Richard, this is such a serious offense you have to know which dogs are involved.

You can't have 2 dogs fighting and scratch all 4 because there was a fight but you don't know who was involved.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-23-2018 03:43 PM:

And you can't just let it go according to UKC. Now that is not my opinion, that is UKC's. I was judging a cast at AO one year. Two dogs were treed. Third dog came in and fight broke out. It was over before we got to tree. I was almost positive which dog started it but did not see it. So I scratched all three. (and one was mine) Other handler questioned it and we went back to a very knowlegeable, well known and respected MOH. He said yes you have to scratch all 3 dogs at the tree. Fourth dog was out and never there so he went back out by himself.

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 06-23-2018 04:35 PM:

The original scenario didn't mention that there was any other dogs on the cast

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Posted by harleydan1956 on 06-23-2018 04:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, the dogs fight and there is nothing that you can do? I thought that the rule said scratch all dogs involved? If you don't know or can't see then everybody gets scratched. This isn't one of those "give them the benefit of the doubt" rules.

By everyone, does it mean other dogs milling around but not treed? And I am 99.99% sure rules state you cannot use a Garmin in scoring situations. So.. what other dogs are there? Handler checks his Garmin, but states his dog is not barking but 200 yards to the right... Can't use Garmin, scratch him anyway?
Too many what if's to just scratch what you hear... And I will tell you, April is a month where yotes will attack dogs on a tree if they get close to their den and pups. I have had it happen already

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Posted by JiM on 06-23-2018 04:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Richard, this is such a serious offense you have to know which dogs are involved.

You can't have 2 dogs fighting and scratch all 4 because there was a fight but you don't know who was involved.

I think you can. In fact, I think the judge is required to do just that if all four dogs are at the scene.

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Posted by yadkintar on 06-23-2018 05:19 PM:

They aggressor is usually the one still on the tree when you get there and behaving like a little angel. They just let them rumble now days you don't believe it dogs hunting for $30,000 get in the final 4 on the play by play one backs the other just decides to leave wish we had sound on those play by plays lol.

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Posted by Chuck Allen on 06-23-2018 05:19 PM:

If the people judging started scratching all dogs involved which I think is the right thing to do, over the years I have done it once or twice and other times I should have but did not. we would see one of two things in about a year either more people at the hunts or less. JMHO with that said as I get older I will probably scratch them all even if my dog was at the tree. I have one Giant dog who is one of the best pup trainer I have ever raised. But like Gus from lonesome dove he will not tolerate rude behavior ever. If I hunted him in the hunts , it would be interesting to see what happens to the jockeying for position fang pressure types etc. And I do not think it is has bad as it used to be either but then I do not comp hunt as much as I did in years past. My buddy and I took 3 of our best extra trashy depression era sportsmen hounds last night and made 2 trees saw 2 coon and they caught 1 in the spillway of a pond. turned loose at 11 pm back home by 1 am.

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Posted by yadkinriver on 06-23-2018 06:15 PM:

I would just withdraw my dog and go home. That's never been done before.

Posted by Rip on 06-23-2018 07:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I think you can. In fact, I think the judge is required to do just that if all four dogs are at the scene.

I believe you would have to know which ones were involved though that's what I am saying not just scratch everybody on the cast because you couldn't figure out which one of the two started it.

I think you would be allowed to make a judgement by evidence as well (tooth marks, bleeding etc) and how they acted when you got there.

You just have to do the best you can to scratch all that were actually involved with the least of collateral damage possible.

Heck most of the time you can listen and tell which two it is, just an example but you have two females and one male on the cast, the male is a super hard treedog and never shuts up while two other dogs are fighting the females are gone you wouldn't scratch the male just because he was at the tree where the fight took place if you can tell he wasn't involved.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-23-2018 07:47 PM:

Everyone has their own opinion about what should be done but if it is questioned and taken back to a competent MOH then every dog involved is going to get scratched.

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