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Where Can I Fine Allen's Article On Tree Style

Anyone

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If You Don't Have A Tree Dog Then You Ain't Got $hit

You referring to this one?

Legislating Tree Dog Style
Q: According to the UKC rules, what is considered treed? If a dog, after being declared treed, momentarily puts his nose to the ground and remains silent and then continues barking at the tree, should he be minused for leaving the tree? What sometimes gets me is when my dog meets me off of the tree (maybe 10 feet) and then turns and runs his nose along the ground right back up the tree, and starts back treeing. Some people minus me and some don’t. If I have first tree you can bet I get minused.
I think there should be some clarification. If treeing is going to be considered to be within the umbrella of the tree, state that in the rules. If they will be minused for trailing or scenting the ground within the umbrella, state that, or maybe put a 1 minute rule on a dog seen scenting under a tree if you’d like. Define the radius about the tree that will be considered tree area. On the casts I’ve been on, this is one major source of headaches. I like “coondogs” and if a coondog scents beneath a tree and starts treeing again he is still a coondog. If a dog backs out from the teeth at the bottom of the tree and is treeing on the scent cone, that is a coondog.

A: I guess according to the UKC rules, the bare minimum requirement a dog must meet to be considered treed is to bark at least once every two minutes and not leave the tree. Everyone applies the rules differently in regards to dogs leaving the tree. Many do refer to the dogs nose being on the ground (implying that the dog is trailing). Some refer to being outside the “umbrella” of the tree. The rules are not that specific. Rule 4(f) says that dogs will be minused when they have been declared treed and dog leaves tree. This is a judgement call but a dog that puts his nose to the ground at the base of the tree and then goes back to treeing will not be minused if I am judging the cast.

I think what adds to the confusion is that portion of Rule 4c which states, “If he goes on the trail just his tree points will be minus.” Is this why some hunters make reference to a dog’s nose being on the ground? Whether a dog’s nose is high on the bark, or on the ground has nothing to do with whether or not he has left the tree.

The more clearly you define an exact distance a dog can be from the tree, the more you open the judging of a cast to carrying tape measures and arguing over inches. You have to use common sense. Yes, you are going to run into people who never had it (common sense), but, I would be interested in knowing how many other people have been minused when their dog came 10 feet off a tree to meet them, then went straight back and started treeing. It seems reasonable by very basic definitions that a dog can either be considered to be at the tree treeing, at the tree and not treeing, or to have left the tree altogether.

You can’t put a time and a distance on every aspect of judging a cast. You could make this so impossible to judge that it couldn’t be done. For example, how close (in feet) does a dog have to come to the cast and how many seconds must he stop before he can be minused for quitting a track? How many rods must dogs be away from the cast or how many decibels must their voices be down to before you can call time out for trailing out of hearing in different directions?

Just two examples of the many issues that cannot be clarified with measurements. I’m afraid that with some individuals, the desire to own a 130 bark per minute tree dog has caused them to place too much of an emphasis on tree style when judging a cast. The Nite Hunt rules do not legislate tree style.

If a mans dog takes a track away from my dog and trees it and has it his dog is going to have to do something pretty stupid around that tree for me to minus him. the hardest best tree dog I ever owned if you had a ruff dog in the cast he would be back off the tree.


Tar

I think that's it I have a dog that likes to put her nose on the ground at the tree. She doesn't come back to meet me.But tree's standing 4 or 5 feet off the tree but likes to put her nose on the ground and go up next to the tree when you walk in.I just know its going to get me in trouble in a hunt and was looking for clarification on minusing a dog with his nose on the ground at a tree

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If You Don't Have A Tree Dog Then You Ain't Got $hit

That article doesn't really clarify much. This is another one of those judgement calls. Which means that every cast will be judged differently since everyone has a different judgement of just what "treeing" is. But most of the hunters I know don't consider milling around and smelling all over the ground "treeing". Treeing is barking up with their nose up in the air no matter how close they are to the trunk of the tree. But smelling around with their nose on the ground is not treeing. It doesn't really matter how far they are from the trunk of the tree. As Allen stated, distance doesn't matter. But smelling on the ground is trailing and barking up in the air is treeing to most.

Allen might not minus you but just be very aware that a lot of them would. The dog has to tree to the satisfaction of the judge so if he says your dogs nose being on the ground means he isn't treed then he can minus you. Then you question it and get a vote. If you are out voted I do not see a MOH overturning it.

For me it would depend on if I seen the dog treeing before I seen it with its nose on the ground. If we get within sight of the dogs and yours has its nose down trailing around I would minus you. If we get within sight and your dog is treeing, then drops its nose down for a second and goes back to treeing then that would be fine with me.

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The trouble is with the people looking to minus the dog with its nose down for those few seconds. Especially if they are getting beat. To some it dont matter how hard the dog was treeing or if it goes back to treeing.

Yes that is where "good judgement" comes in. Some think that it is all right for a dog to quit treeing for a "few seconds" and some don't. And then they start argueing about just how long a dog can guit and not get minused. It is different for each individual handler so it just depends on who is in your cast and how they vote. Some people's judgement gets stricter when they are getting beat, but they will give you more leeway when they are winning.

So if I'm losing I get plus and minus if i'm winning. I guess this is what the hunts have become

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If You Don't Have A Tree Dog Then You Ain't Got $hit

quote:

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Originally posted by jawscardodger
So if I'm losing I get plus and minus if i'm winning. I guess this is what the hunts have become

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We all need to wear body cams. Then the MOH could watch the replay. Short of that take your minus and move on.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Yes that is where "good judgement" comes in. Some think that it is all right for a dog to quit treeing for a "few seconds" and some don't. And then they start argueing about just how long a dog can guit and not get minused. It is different for each individual handler so it just depends on who is in your cast and how they vote. Some people's judgement gets stricter when they are getting beat, but they will give you more leeway when they are winning.

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quote:

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Originally posted by K. Singletary
A dog only has to bark once every two minutes to be considered treed when you can't see it, so where does a few seconds come from when you can see it. We all know that those dogs that quit barking for a minute plus when we are walking in aren't standing on the tree looking up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by joey
Your right and 2 min is way to long. If I can hear it treeing all the way in and see what tree it's on before I see it on the ground, then it's normally safe unless it just takes off. If I can't see what tree it is on when I get there and it's on the ground I'll minus the dog.

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Kenny's Allnite Black and Tans
Moncks Corner, SC
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quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Has nothing to do with making the right call. If it makes a difference, it's a "people" problem.

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Oh my goodness, you mean that you can't learn all about Coon hunting and training dogs on the interweb?

quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
Exactly.

Anybody that has ran hounds any time at all can tell the difference when a dog is milling and not showing treed vs excited to see its owner coming and putting it's nose down to make sure it gets back to the tree it came from. Huge difference and it is easy to tell, but I can't tell you on a keyboard you have to be there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by joey
What about one that has it's nose down but isn't meeting You?

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Henery meltons hardtime cody jar never treed with his head up in the air he he would be digging at the bottom of the tree barking straight at the ground and id say that dog has treed more coons than most stud dogs listed on this website how would most score that if u walked up to it

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Rip, you and I know when they are treed or not but its a slippery slope. We walk up and dont minus a dog on one tree and do minus on the next one for what looks like the exactly the same thing. That's why it gets so confusing and we are cheats to one guy and a good judge to the other.

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Home Of:
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PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

quote:

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Originally posted by joey
Rip, you and I know when they are treed or not but its a slippery slope. We walk up and dont minus a dog on one tree and do minus on the next one for what looks like the exactly the same thing. That's why it gets so confusing and we are cheats to one guy and a good judge to the other.

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This issue has been a problem for as long as I have been in the hunts. It's usually a crutch a guy will pull when losing.

How this should be judged is as simple as it gets, at least to me.

When I'm judging and we are approaching a tree, if a dog is in the area of the tree, I simply stop right where I'm at for a few seconds. If the dog "shows" the tree then I'' say handle the dog. If the dog just stands there not showing the tree then I will minus it and there won't be any complaints from anyone. Distance or nose down should have nothing to do with it.

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Just an example of a pleasure hunt my son and I, 2 buddies Gary and Justin where pleasure hunting in Osage County in August 4 dogs ran a coon about and hour in soybean field took him out of there and treed near a pond, we had to drive around to them and they were only treed about 10-15 minutes now when we got in the truck all 4 dogs were hammering it hard when we got around to them and walked in there only one dog was treeing when we got to the tree it was about 40 yards from the pond 2 of the dogs had gone and got a drink and came back to the tree and 1 was on his way back to the tree from the pond , the one that was treed left and went and got a drink then came right back to the tree. It was about 80 degrees that night. all 4 dogs would more than likely receive minus points in a competition hunt.

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