UKC Forums - Minus Strike And Tree Points

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-- Minus Strike And Tree Points (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928497684)

Posted by Dale Yates on 01-02-2018 06:49 PM:

Minus Strike And Tree Points

CITING RULES AND NOT OPINIONS PLEASE, WHEN CAST ARRIVES AT TREE, AND BEFORE DOGS ARE HANDLED, WHAT WOULD CONSTITUTE A DOG BEING MINUSED FOR LEAVING THE TREE? IF DOG IS NOT "ON THE WOOD", AND MOVING AROUND THE TREE, LOOKING UP AND BARKING, IS THIS ALLOWED AND HOW FAR CAN THE DOG GET FROM THE BASE OF THE TREE?
THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR WISDOM!

Posted by joey on 01-02-2018 06:56 PM:

For the question you asked opinions are all we can give you. The rule says it's the judges discretion. So it the judges opinion.

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Posted by Rip on 01-02-2018 07:26 PM:

Re: Minus Strike And Tree Points

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Yates
CITING RULES AND NOT OPINIONS PLEASE, WHEN CAST ARRIVES AT TREE, AND BEFORE DOGS ARE HANDLED, WHAT WOULD CONSTITUTE A DOG BEING MINUSED FOR LEAVING THE TREE? IF DOG IS NOT "ON THE WOOD", AND MOVING AROUND THE TREE, LOOKING UP AND BARKING, IS THIS ALLOWED AND HOW FAR CAN THE DOG GET FROM THE BASE OF THE TREE?
THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR WISDOM!

As long as he is showing you the tree that's all he has to do. No rules about tree style.

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Posted by Dale Yates on 01-02-2018 07:55 PM:

JOEY

Which rule are you referring to? Thanks.

Posted by Jgarrett on 01-02-2018 10:01 PM:

The only part that some what address your question is
11. scoring dogs
B. After arriving to tree.
I’m not going to type it out verbatim but showing tree satisfactory is a judgment call and lyes with the judge or voting members of the cast.

Posted by Dale Yates on 01-02-2018 10:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jgarrett
The only part that some what address your question is
11. scoring dogs
B. After arriving to tree.
I’m not going to type it out verbatim but showing tree satisfactory is a judgment call and lyes with the judge or voting members of the cast.

THANKS

Posted by david.e.penley on 01-06-2018 12:39 AM:

Leaving the tree

According to Allen at one of the big hunts last year , the dog can't be minus for leaving a tree if the dog stays under the canopy of that tree and does not open. Thats what UKC ruled on in that situation.

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Posted by david.e.penley on 01-06-2018 12:56 AM:

Minus strike and tree

According to this situation a hound can't be minus for leaving a tree , as long as it stays under the canopy of the tree barking up or not.

Posted by joey on 01-06-2018 02:05 AM:

Re: Leaving the tree

quote:
Originally posted by david.e.penley
According to Allen at one of the big hunts last year , the dog can't be minus for leaving a tree if the dog stays under the canopy of that tree and does not open. Thats what UKC ruled on in that situation.

I wasn't there but I really hope you somehow misunderstood what Allen said, because its been said multiple times by UKC and Allen, that the canopy of the tree has absolutely nothing to do with it. Its the judges discretion as to if a dog is treed or not. No canopy or anything else.

Some trees are 1/4 acre and some are 10 feet no way that works out. The dog is either treed or it isnt. The judge was chosen because he is supposed to know what is going on and if he gets it wrong then you get to question and vote on it.

Posted by david.e.penley on 01-06-2018 02:36 AM:

Minus strike and tree

I wasn't there either but the one that got screw out of a win was because the dog wasn't minus because the didn't get out pass the canopy of the tree and he did rear up on another tree within the canopy but didn't open up and went back to the base of the tree if this the same situation. You might be talking about another situation.

Posted by Rip on 01-06-2018 02:51 AM:

Re: Minus strike and tree

quote:
Originally posted by david.e.penley
I wasn't there either but the one that got screw out of a win was because the dog wasn't minus because the didn't get out pass the canopy of the tree and he did rear up on another tree within the canopy but didn't open up and went back to the base of the tree if this the same situation. You might be talking about another situation.

What he is referring to is that UKC has stated officially several times that there is nothing about the canopy of the tree in the rules nor does the canopy of the tree protect a dog that is not showing treed.

By the same token a dog can meet you off the tree, it can even put it's nose back to the ground and go back to the tree, as long as it is showing treed to the satisfaction of the judge then it is treed.

That is the official ruling by them, several times. No such thing as canopy saving or hurting a dog, it's all on is the dog showing treed or not, did the dog just meet the handler and go back or did it go back on trail. Judges decision.

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Posted by david.e.penley on 01-06-2018 03:14 AM:

Minus strike and tree

They must have come up with that after this situation that im talking about . for the judge and the master of hounds was going to minus the dog for leaving the tree until a big name member that owned the dog came into the club house crying that if they minus his dog that he would pull all his hounds out of ukc. I don't know what made him think that would hurt ukc. But they didn't minus the dog because he stayed within the canopy of the tree. Thats all i know, they might realize they screwed up by not minusing this hound and wanted everyone know that it don't matter about the canopy of a tree. But i know ukc screwed that situation up.

Posted by joey on 01-06-2018 01:07 PM:

Re: Minus strike and tree

quote:
Originally posted by david.e.penley
They must have come up with that after this situation that im talking about . for the judge and the master of hounds was going to minus the dog for leaving the tree until a big name member that owned the dog came into the club house crying that if they minus his dog that he would pull all his hounds out of ukc. I don't know what made him think that would hurt ukc. But they didn't minus the dog because he stayed within the canopy of the tree. Thats all i know, they might realize they screwed up by not minusing this hound and wanted everyone know that it don't matter about the canopy of a tree. But i know ukc screwed that situation up.

I don't know David but I have been doing this a long time and its how it has always been. If you were not there either I would suspect the info you got was twisted to fit who ever told the stories version of what happened.

Posted by david.e.penley on 01-06-2018 01:59 PM:

Minus strike and tree

All i know Allen got a panel up and thats what they said and ruled in the big name dog owners favor going against the judge and master of hounhiand the rules. Me myself i would back my judge , master of hounds and the rules and minus the dog or scratch the dog owner for not acting professional and let him pull his dogs out of ukc if thats what he wants to do. This situation is not the only time ukc went agaist their own rules, its just who you are in ukc i guess.

Posted by jawscardodger on 01-06-2018 02:11 PM:

The key here is BIG NAME DOG OWENER

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Posted by joey on 01-06-2018 08:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jawscardodger
The key here is BIG NAME DOG OWENER

I think the key here is David wasn't there and was told this.

Posted by david.e.penley on 01-06-2018 09:07 PM:

Minus strike and tree

Yes joey i was told this by the one that got screwed out of a win. If you don't think things like this happens , you need to get involed more.

Posted by JiM on 01-06-2018 09:11 PM:

Yes, that's it, Joey isn't involved enough.......

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Posted by joey on 01-06-2018 11:41 PM:

Re: Minus strike and tree

quote:
Originally posted by david.e.penley
Yes joey i was told this by the one that got screwed out of a win. If you don't think things like this happens , you need to get involed more.

Trust me David I know this stuff happens, but what I see happen way more is the guy telling all his buddies back home how he was screwed out of something when if you were told both sides you might see it differently. The guy that told you that might be telling you the absolute truth. Or he could have misunderstood what was being said. One thing I'm fairly confident about is Allen didn't tell anyone a dog couldnt get minus as long as it was under the canopy.

Posted by david.e.penley on 01-06-2018 11:53 PM:

Minus strike and tree

Then you believe what you want to believe and i will do the same. I would believe this old boy before i would believe ukc.
Things does happen.

Posted by Rip on 01-07-2018 12:47 AM:

Re: Minus strike and tree

quote:
Originally posted by david.e.penley
Then you believe what you want to believe and i will do the same. I would believe this old boy before i would believe ukc.
Things does happen.

The problem is that I and most other people on here know for a fact that the official ruling from UKC, even back to Todd Kellum was that the canopy of the tree doesn't mean anything.

It does't protect the dog, it doesn't hurt the dog.

That is why it is not very believable when we know they have said this over and over again through the years that he would all of a sudden say the dog is protected by the canopy of the tree.

He didn't say your buddy was lying. He is saying that it is more likely your buddy misunderstood something or was told wrong than it is that Allan said the canopy of the tree protected a dog that wasn't treed.

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Posted by david.e.penley on 01-07-2018 12:55 AM:

Minus strike and tree

I kniw what the rule is about the canopy. Its just who you are if it applys.

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 01-07-2018 04:19 AM:

Re: Minus strike and tree

quote:
Originally posted by david.e.penley
I kniw what the rule is about the canopy.

What's the rule I'd like to read it ?

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Posted by david.e.penley on 01-07-2018 04:27 AM:

Minus strike and tree

quote:
Originally posted by Jgarrett
The only part that some what address your question is
11. scoring dogs
B. After arriving to tree.
I’m not going to type it out verbatim but showing tree satisfactory is a judgment call and lyes with the judge or voting members of the cast.

Posted by david.e.penley on 01-07-2018 04:27 AM:

Minus strike and tree

quote:
Originally posted by Jgarrett
The only part that some what address your question is
11. scoring dogs
B. After arriving to tree.
I’m not going to type it out verbatim but showing tree satisfactory is a judgment call and lyes with the judge or voting members of the cast.

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