UKC Forums - E-Collar Training

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Posted by Laura Bell on 06-07-2017 05:48 PM:

E-Collar Training

Over the last year or so I've had numerous people tell me that they run a shock collar on their dogs all the time (example: Garmin Alpha system) not because the dog is trashy, but in case the dog ventures towards a road. They can see the dog on the screen or hear the dog working and getting close to the road and so they hit them with electricity until the dog stops heading that way.

How many train this way and is it consistently working?

I'm always looking for good ways to train and having a dog hit on the road is one of my worst fears for my dogs when hunting, so I'm curious if this is worth putting training time into. I know they can still get hit no matter what, but if this helps lessen the chance I might need to invest in a good shock system.

Thanks,
Laura

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Posted by harleydan1956 on 06-07-2017 05:52 PM:

I run a shocker/toner on my dogs Everytime I turn them loose. Had 2 killed on the road in 46 years, never easy. But I start with the toner. Have never shocked one. Never had to. Tone trained had always turned them around. Maybe a hard headed dog might need tapped.... But for me, I feel so much better.

PS. If they do mess up on trash.... Hehe.... Nice time to break them the first time they do it....

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Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 06-07-2017 06:05 PM:

There is e-collar training and then there is Good Ole Boy E collar training. I know people that train dogs professionally, especially Gun Dogs and they cringe at how some of the hound people use E-collars on their hounds. With that said I also cringe sometimes but I will tell you dogs are a lot tougher than we give them credit for being. I have seen good ole boys take either the ALPHA System or an E-Collar system and stop a PACK, not just one or two of hounds running full tilt to a highway. The cross the road running a doe they can stop them and get them in their truck and go find a buck. It is amazing to me what a lot of people without every reading a book or looking at a video has accomplished with a E Collar system on their dogs. Yes there are always the war stories of how they don't work but I am here to tell you these guys are figuring it out to their liking and doing it fast.

Harleydan the biggest problem I see on trash is getting the guy that is experienced that knows his dog to trashing to actually believe it and hit the button. 8 out of 10 coonhunters will wait, wanting to be sure and loose the perfect training opportunity.

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Posted by harleydan1956 on 06-07-2017 08:06 PM:

Bruce, I did forget 2 very important items that need said. First, make positively sure what your dog is doing before you use it, Very important like Bruce said. 2nd and equally if not more important .... If you have a temper... Do not own a shocker.... The dog will suffer and your head won't be clear till after you went over board....

Posted by joey on 06-07-2017 10:08 PM:

Re: E-Collar Training

quote:
Originally posted by Laura Bell
Over the last year or so I've had numerous people tell me that they run a shock collar on their dogs all the time (example: Garmin Alpha system) not because the dog is trashy, but in case the dog ventures towards a road. They can see the dog on the screen or hear the dog working and getting close to the road and so they hit them with electricity until the dog stops heading that way.

How many train this way and is it consistently working?

I'm always looking for good ways to train and having a dog hit on the road is one of my worst fears for my dogs when hunting, so I'm curious if this is worth putting training time into. I know they can still get hit no matter what, but if this helps lessen the chance I might need to invest in a good shock system.

Thanks,
Laura

Ya I can control mine like that. 1 beep of the tone means to turn around. I hold the tone button down for a few seconds and he comes to me. I turn him when he is headed to a road, private property or some place I just don't want to go. I don't do it if he is running a track.

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Posted by Well Started on 06-08-2017 02:14 AM:

Tone train. Tone means quit what you are doing or focused on and come, it's that simple. How do you back up that come means come if they ignore it? You bump them with whatever level it takes for that particular dog to get the reaction you are looking for. I.E. immediately stop what they are doing and come.

Even a less than average intelligent dog can quickly grasp this concept and once they got it, most will rarely if ever ignore the tone. If they do the discipline that quickly follows they know immediately what it was for and respond accordingly.

Combined with a Garmin, it's one heck of a great tool for keeping dogs away from danger they are unaware of.

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Posted by Autumn Clements on 06-08-2017 09:45 AM:

Yes I use tone to get their attention and come, if they aren't listening then bump them with the shocker.
It is the main reason I run a shocker on a dog

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Posted by SRF on 06-08-2017 12:43 PM:

e-collar

I use a garmin delta xc sport shock collar. I've tried this training and worked with my dogs and it does work somewhat. They won't just go walking down the road but if a coon crosses the road they'll run across and not care about the shock. I would say though that it's probably not worth trying to train because they won't stop for a coon.

That's just my experience though but good luck with your dogs.

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Posted by msinc on 06-08-2017 07:56 PM:

Re: e-collar

quote:
Originally posted by SRF
I use a garmin delta xc sport shock collar. I've tried this training and worked with my dogs and it does work somewhat. They won't just go walking down the road but if a coon crosses the road they'll run across and not care about the shock. I would say though that it's probably not worth trying to train because they won't stop for a coon.

That's just my experience though but good luck with your dogs.

I am gonna be odd man out here. I do not use the tone to recall my dogs. I will say though that it is definitely the easiest way and that is why so many people do it. I don't know if you can even call it training...shock and tone the dog and he comes to you. Not a hard accomplishment.
I use the tone to "fire a warning shot" when they are running off game. I start out with the tone and ramp up until I stop them. Usually, if the dog has any intelligence they learn pretty quick that the tone means two things..."stop doing what you are doing" and "pain might follow soon." If I am not sure he is running off and I want to check him, the tone will make him think about it, but not run back to me. I don't want to stop him if it is a coon, and I don't want to hurt him either.
I don't have anything against using it for an easy recall, but to me there are better more effective ways to use it. First off, if you do start out using it as a recall, you know that eventually you are going to have to shock the dog for running off game. He comes to you and thinks you want him by your side. Eventually, if you have a dog that needs a few repeat lessons he keeps coming in to you and starts to think you don't want him to leave your side. What you want him to really do is blame it on the deer or fox. No getting around it if you first use it for recall.
Second reason to not use it to call the dog is that what are you going to do if eventually {and it will happen sooner or later} the collar don't work for some reason???? If you cant stop him from running a fox he might be okay...what if you cant stop him from crossing a highway????

Edit: you have to use restraint when using the collar this way. You cant be shocking the dog for anything else when you are using the collar to break a dog from off game. Too many people put a collar on a dog and shock them for everything they don't want the dog to do. Peeing on too many trees...zap!!!...messing with a dead animal...zap!!!....bothering the females....zap!!!! Next thing you know the dog just comes to his owner every time the collar is used and soon the "trainer" is bragging about how he "calls his dog"

Posted by joey on 06-08-2017 08:29 PM:

Msinc, I'll agree with a lot of that but I do it different. 1 tone means do something differnt. Off game doesn't get a warning, I lay into them right off. If I hold the tone button down for multiple beeps it means come to me. It has worked very well for me.

Also I do not agree with a dog can't know it's you correcting him. That's never made sense to me. Every other problem it's ok to let them know that I'm the one correcting him but not for running off game? I used to break them all the time by running them down and teaching them the lesson and it worked. They dang sure knew that was me doing the correcting.

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 06-08-2017 08:44 PM:

I use my tone for come here, its the greatest thing ever.
Never had a problem, ready to go , Tone! Hunting wrong direction Tone! Nothing better than to see one, in these ridges 1 mile deep and tone to come on in
I hardly ever have to shock, they only get shocked for trash.
Do your yard training before you go to woods with the collar and you will be happy.

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Posted by msinc on 06-08-2017 11:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Msinc, I'll agree with a lot of that but I do it different. 1 tone means do something differnt. Off game doesn't get a warning, I lay into them right off. If I hold the tone button down for multiple beeps it means come to me. It has worked very well for me.

Also I do not agree with a dog can't know it's you correcting him. That's never made sense to me. Every other problem it's ok to let them know that I'm the one correcting him but not for running off game? I used to break them all the time by running them down and teaching them the lesson and it worked. They dang sure knew that was me doing the correcting.

My thing about them not knowing it is me has two reasons behind it...first, I want the dog to associate the pain of being stopped with the animal he is trying to catch and fall in love with. If the dog believes it's the animal he will get over being in love with it and wanting to chase it a whole lot quicker. He learns to dislike the deer or fox. Which comes to the second reason.,..not all dogs, but most in my experience, as soon as they figure out I have something to do with stopping them they start figuring out ways to run junk and defeat me. Once they know it's not the deer or fox they realize they don't have to be afraid of those animals, what they have to do is avoid getting caught.
I have one right now that is without a doubt the smartest dog I have ever had in my life...he learned that if he goes completely silent he can get away with a good red fox race for at least a quick easy 800-1000 yards then open up. The Alpha 100 cured that.
Don't get me wrong, I also let my dogs know that I am not happy wit their performance and I believe it is important to do so and give them another reason to leave junk alone. I would just rather he think the deer or fox is doing the hurting.

Posted by Well Started on 06-09-2017 02:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
I use my tone for come here, its the greatest thing ever.
Never had a problem, ready to go , Tone! Hunting wrong direction Tone! Nothing better than to see one, in these ridges 1 mile deep and tone to come on in
I hardly ever have to shock, they only get shocked for trash.
Do your yard training before you go to woods with the collar and you will be happy.

Exactly. Most dogs need a tickle at some point in the yard to back up that the tone means come. Most never test it after that, nor do they forget. In the woods some dogs will test it again when they have their mind on something else. I actually like when they do, because it gives an opportunity for training that once again backs up everything they already learned. At that point you have a tone trained dog.

E-collars are a fantastic training tool if used correctly. They have an arm that's a mile long, they are instant, they are consistent, they are extremely persuasive, but at the same time fair to the dog and don't lose their temper. Dogs understand all of that type of training easily and respond to it extremely well.

Posted by shadinc on 06-09-2017 03:29 PM:

It seems a lot of hunters don't understand TRAINING. Can you imagine being blind and a trainer tells you, " This seeing eye dog is trained unless he sees a cat, then he'll pull you in front of a semi." A dog is either trained or he's not.

Posted by Laura Bell on 06-09-2017 04:13 PM:

Thanks for the input guys. Looks like I might have some training to do!

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Posted by HOBO on 06-09-2017 04:27 PM:

I think the vibrate might be better to teach the dog to come than the tone. If you are hunting with someone else and they tone their dog and yours hears the tone it will come to you when you don't want it to. With the vibrate option your dog is the one that feels the vibrate and will act according to how it was trained.

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Posted by msinc on 06-09-2017 05:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
I think the vibrate might be better to teach the dog to come than the tone. If you are hunting with someone else and they tone their dog and yours hears the tone it will come to you when you don't want it to. With the vibrate option your dog is the one that feels the vibrate and will act according to how it was trained.

This is a good idea, if you use the tone to recall. It could be one more reason not to call dogs this way...you want yours and all of them come back. Or you tone one to stop him from running off and all the other dogs come in.
In my experience the vibrate option to the dog is in between tone and shock. They react more to the vibrate as if they are getting shocked because it feels more like a shock. Think about those stupid scare toys that buzz and vibrate and make a shocking noise when you grab one...how scared would you be if all it did was beep when you grabbed it??? I save the vibrate option for trying to stop a dog before ramping up to the shock.

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 06-09-2017 05:45 PM:

I often wonder if the dog can tell the difference in vibrate and shock. I have seen many a dog that has had several shocks respond the same to vibrate. Almost like he thought he was getting shocked.

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Posted by HOBO on 06-09-2017 06:03 PM:

I put mine on vibrate on Hoss one night and he didn't pay it any attention at all.

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 06-09-2017 08:34 PM:

Most of the time mine are by there self, and generally if you have to tone one, they all need toned. I like to keep it as simple as possible, Tone means come and Shock means bad.

I have seen some dogs that come flying in after another dog has been toned. But like i said if you tone one they are in headed to trouble or you are ready to go, so its not the worst thing.

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Posted by msinc on 06-09-2017 10:21 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I often wonder if the dog can tell the difference in vibrate and shock. I have seen many a dog that has had several shocks respond the same to vibrate. Almost like he thought he was getting shocked.

Exactly....I guess some dogs can take more than others and some are very shock sensitive. The first time I did the vibrate thing to one of mine he squealed and about did a flip, I thought I must have hit the wrong button. Many years ago I had a female that loved deer. She learned that if she shut up and took it I would think the collar wasn't working and stop trying. Well, I think all she really knew was it stopped if she didn't make any noise. She would get all wrinkled up in the face and shake, but not make a sound. When I couldn't find her she would go on the deer again.

Posted by John Carroll on 06-10-2017 12:01 AM:

I have a young male that will fold up like a cheap shirt with a very mild level shock.

I have a female that is mega talented with a big motor, and she is the toughest, hardest headed hussy I have ever owned.

Turn the Alpha up to at least 16 or she ignores it.

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Posted by shadinc on 06-10-2017 02:45 PM:

She could be more confused than defiant.

Posted by ole hoss on 06-12-2017 07:17 AM:

Re: Re: e-collar

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
I am gonna be odd man out here. I do not use the tone to recall my dogs. I will say though that it is definitely the easiest way and that is why so many people do it. I don't know if you can even call it training...shock and tone the dog and he comes to you. Not a hard accomplishment.
I use the tone to "fire a warning shot" when they are running off game. I start out with the tone and ramp up until I stop them. Usually, if the dog has any intelligence they learn pretty quick that the tone means two things..."stop doing what you are doing" and "pain might follow soon." If I am not sure he is running off and I want to check him, the tone will make him think about it, but not run back to me. I don't want to stop him if it is a coon, and I don't want to hurt him either.
I don't have anything against using it for an easy recall, but to me there are better more effective ways to use it. First off, if you do start out using it as a recall, you know that eventually you are going to have to shock the dog for running off game. He comes to you and thinks you want him by your side. Eventually, if you have a dog that needs a few repeat lessons he keeps coming in to you and starts to think you don't want him to leave your side. What you want him to really do is blame it on the deer or fox. No getting around it if you first use it for recall.
Second reason to not use it to call the dog is that what are you going to do if eventually {and it will happen sooner or later} the collar don't work for some reason???? If you cant stop him from running a fox he might be okay...what if you cant stop him from crossing a highway????

Edit: you have to use restraint when using the collar this way. You cant be shocking the dog for anything else when you are using the collar to break a dog from off game. Too many people put a collar on a dog and shock them for everything they don't want the dog to do. Peeing on too many trees...zap!!!...messing with a dead animal...zap!!!....bothering the females....zap!!!! Next thing you know the dog just comes to his owner every time the collar is used and soon the "trainer" is bragging about how he "calls his dog"

I sure wish u would be queit took me years to learn what u wrote in one paragraph!!!! Let em tone em in!!

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Posted by msinc on 06-12-2017 11:14 AM:

Re: Re: Re: e-collar

quote:
Originally posted by ole hoss
I sure wish u would be queit took me years to learn what u wrote in one paragraph!!!! Let em tone em in!!

Okay ole hoss...LOL I promise to let them think they are great trainers for "teaching" a dog to come in when they hit the tone button. I will even compliment them on their great accomplishment!!!! Way to go guys!!! Just keep training that way.

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