UKC Forums - Rabies question?????

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Posted by msinc on 04-13-2017 03:03 AM:

Rabies question?????

I have read that "men have become infected with rabies by breathing the air in caves with rabid bats". I know it typically transfers to a victim by going from saliva of an infected "host" to blood such as by a bite. Is it true that rabies virus can transfer by breathing infected air???? Example, a sick animal waddles out of the woods onto an inhabited area and a dog gets right up in the infected animals face where they are literally breathing the same air. I understand about "furious" and so-called "dumb" rabies, before someone jumps on here with the "if he gets that close he will get bit anyways!!" comments. I also understand that rabies vaccines are very effective. I guess the question is; if animals are in very close {as in touching or almost touching} proximity and breathing the same air, would it be considered "exposure" in which the one could get infected and something to be concerned about if the other animal was already infected and showing symptoms??? Thanks in advance for any info!!!

Posted by ahallada on 04-13-2017 04:43 AM:

There were a couple of cases here in CA in the last 30 years where people were exploring bat caves and contracted Rabies virus. There were no bite wounds so it was suspected that the guy contracted the virus through the respiratory system by breathing in the viral particles suspended in the air. I think the other guy was bitten by a bat. But those are the only 2 cases that I know of where they actually died from Rabies recently.

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Posted by msinc on 04-13-2017 12:45 PM:

Thanks for the reply Doc!!! I had no idea that happened in California. I had always imagined it being in some third world country with a single airport that has pigs and chickens running around on the floor.
Two days ago we had an incident with a sick raccoon. He waddled into a paddock with my wife's{of course} and also the most expensive {again, of course} Andalusian on the farm. They stood touching nose to nose for about 5 minutes until I was alerted by someone and got my gun to dispatch the raccoon.
Later that day, one of the grandmothers small dogs throat locked up as if he was choking and he died. The vet found nothing in his throat. Then an hour later another dog fell out. This one was a retriever and it had a seizure, was instantly paralyzed and went blind. It had to be put down. All three were sent for testing and we should hear today the results. The local health dept acted as if the horse cannot be a problem.
I understand rabies doesn't work this quickly and that it is probably not rabies at all, but 3 animals in one day???? It was a bad day for dogs around this place.

Posted by wjoey on 04-14-2017 03:44 AM:

Wow now this is interesting to say the least , sorry for the loss of your dogs, did you send the raccoon for testing ? sounds more like a case of poisoning,

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Posted by msinc on 04-14-2017 12:04 PM:

Yes sir, I agree...I mean, I know rabies don't work this fast, but I guess the dogs could have been exposed at a much earlier date. The one dog stays outside and runs loose all the time. The other is let out for extended periods, so this raccoon may not have even been the culprit, if there is a culprit. It's very likely that rabies is not even involved, it is kind of rare around here.
The lab actually has somewhat recovered. Last I had heard they were heading to the vet to put him down. The vet is saying they think it could be "ivermectin poisoning."
We have still not gotten the test results back from the raccoon and the first dog. That is expected today. I'll post the results.

Edit: just found out that none of the animals involved were rabid.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 04-14-2017 06:55 PM:

I was not in the caves in California so I can't say for sure. What I can tell you is in the caves feces and urine are very prevalent. Historically rabies has been proven to spread via body fluids. Both urine and feces may have been the culprit rather than air borne exposure.

I know I have been directly involved in bat research here in Michigan. I have been in many attics and barns of large colonies of bats. I can attest to the large amount of feces, urine, and excrement.

I would personally be very suspect of air borne exposure claims of rabies, but hey I believe all scientist should be more skeptical.

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Posted by msinc on 04-14-2017 08:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
I was not in the caves in California so I can't say for sure. What I can tell you is in the caves feces and urine are very prevalent. Historically rabies has been proven to spread via body fluids. Both urine and feces may have been the culprit rather than air borne exposure.

I know I have been directly involved in bat research here in Michigan. I have been in many attics and barns of large colonies of bats. I can attest to the large amount of feces, urine, and excrement.

I would personally be very suspect of air borne exposure claims of rabies, but hey I believe all scientist should be more skeptical.

Yes sir, as I understand it, rabies has to go from saliva to blood and that this is the most common way for it to infect. I have always read that the virus can be transferred by "breathing infected air'. But, I have also always heard that it cannot live outside the body at all and had two different vets tell me that same thing.
I think the virus must stay above a certain temperature which must be pretty close to the body temperature of most mammals because, if I remember right as soon as an animal dies and its body temperature drops several degrees the virus dies too.
One other thing I didn't know until this incident, the first vaccine takes around 30 days or so to become effective and give the animal protection. Once that one is given, if the animal goes past his booster time, as soon as the booster is given the protection is very quick to the point of being almost immediate.
I understand being skeptical about airborne transfer...but my luck is so bad that I will probably get some ultra rare form that laid in the ground for 6 months!!!!

Posted by Rex Ridge on 04-15-2017 02:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc

The lab actually has somewhat recovered. Last I had heard they were heading to the vet to put him down. The vet is saying they think it could be "ivermectin poisoning."
We have still not gotten the test results back from the raccoon and the first dog. That is expected today. I'll post the results.

Have u dewormed your horses lately with Ivermectin? I was always told if dogs eat horse manure after they've been dewormed, it can make them sick.

Posted by msinc on 04-15-2017 02:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rex Ridge
Have u dewormed your horses lately with Ivermectin? I was always told if dogs eat horse manure after they've been dewormed, it can make them sick.

Yes sir, that is exactly what the vet here told us as well. Every horse on the farm is wormed with ivermectin. We board too, so there is close to 60 of them that are all wormed with ivermectin. I don't doubt this can happen, but we didn't just start this business...been here at this farm doing the same thing since 1997. The grandmother has always had a little house mutt of some kind running around. These two dogs that got sick have been around for 9 and 5 years respectively.
It would sure seem like to me that they would have to eat quite a few "horse apples" to get sick...point being, I have never seen them do it. Of course that don't mean it aint happening either, something sure killed the one and made the other near death.

Posted by Ruger on 04-16-2017 04:56 PM:

rabies

I've heard it was just through the saliva might not be the case but thats what i was told but by the way it was described in CA maybe it does go through air i don't know

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Posted by pstevens490 on 04-17-2017 12:56 AM:

ivermectin paste

We use the Ivermectin horse paste for heartworm medicine for our hounds because it greatly reduces the overall cost, BUT you have to be extremely careful with the doses. They must be kept to a minimum. Know a guy that accidently gave his hound 3/4 of a tube and that hound was blind the next day and having seizures but rushed to the vet, treated and recovered fully. My bet is those dogs got into the actual tubes of medicine somehow.

Posted by msinc on 04-17-2017 03:57 AM:

Re: ivermectin paste

quote:
Originally posted by pstevens490
We use the Ivermectin horse paste for heartworm medicine for our hounds because it greatly reduces the overall cost, BUT you have to be extremely careful with the doses. They must be kept to a minimum. Know a guy that accidently gave his hound 3/4 of a tube and that hound was blind the next day and having seizures but rushed to the vet, treated and recovered fully. My bet is those dogs got into the actual tubes of medicine somehow.

That very well maybe, but I have to say, I also use it and agree that the correct dose is very small. My dogs loose their mind when they have to take it. They run in their box and wont come out if they see something in my hand that even looks like the stuff. Once I smear it on their tongue they act like getting that taste out of their mouth is a must. They really hate it. That said, based on the way my three act when they get the little tiny bit I give them once a month, I cannot imagine a dog that would happily break into a tube and swallow any, let alone enough to go into seizures and croak.
Back in the 90's my female was only in heat twice in 9 years...I asked the vet about it and he asked, "how much ivermectin are you giving them???" When I told him he used his pencil to do some math on his clipboard and said, "yeah, that's about 4 times the amount they should be getting." Now I never did have any other issues and I also never had any heartworms and this area had been pretty bad for them back in those days.
I know you give a horse the whole tube, but at least some, if not most of the medicine has to be "used" or depleted going through the horses system...not to mention dissipated. I mean, how much horse plop does/can a dog have to eat to get poisoned???? It's really looking more like a "family" thing. You know the kind where when some grandchild makes a mistake, kills an innocent little animal, makes another one near death sick and the rest of the world never hears the truth....seen this "mystery" too many times with this bunch. in-laws....what are ya gonna do?????

Posted by high ridge on 04-17-2017 01:57 PM:

ddlete

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Posted by high ridge on 04-17-2017 01:58 PM:

Wrong spot. Sorry guys

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