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Babbling Clarification

Since the other the other thread kind of got hi jacked when it wasn't even about babbling. Here is my dilemma with everyone saying you can minus a dog for babbling after the minute and (i understand it is a rule) ...I have a dog that is going to bark frequently from the time he can smell a coon to the finish of a track no matter how hot or cold. Some people might not prefer this but I have never not once had a judge try to minus me or even bring it up. I have won cast with this dog. Now how would a judge know a dog was babbling in the hunt unless it was under a minute and he could see the dog? Like what would the situation be that a judge knew a dog babbled unless they could see the dog?

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i have a dog just like this curious to hear some thoughts on that cause when he barks he ends up with a coon....now sometimes he barks a lot but has a coon.

Its not going to happen, the ukc interpretation of the rule says anytime a dog babbles it can be minused. In reality if the dog is not close enough to tell what's going on then it will not happen, but you want an example. So after the minut let's say a dog opens deep and a dog close is seen head up running to that dog barking. Or 30 minutes into the hunt 2 are seen running down a road racing and barking. What's not going to happen is a dog is struck 300 yards in the timber and minused for babbling. Under the strict interpretation of the rule the judge could but he will definitely be questioned and out voted.

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Re: Babbling Clarification

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Originally posted by gpent24
Since the other the other thread kind of got hi jacked when it wasn't even about babbling. Here is my dilemma with everyone saying you can minus a dog for babbling after the minute and (i understand it is a rule) ...I have a dog that is going to bark frequently from the time he can smell a coon to the finish of a track no matter how hot or cold. Some people might not prefer this but I have never not once had a judge try to minus me or even bring it up. I have won cast with this dog. Now how would a judge know a dog was babbling in the hunt unless it was under a minute and he could see the dog? Like what would the situation be that a judge knew a dog babbled unless they could see the dog?

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Re: Re: Babbling Clarification

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Originally posted by Rip
I'll give you one. Turned out one night and this one dog was babbling. It was a three dog cast. He was the only one opening. He waited the minute and struck him. He was out of sight but I knew he was babbling and I minused him. He tried to argue and we voted. He was probably 50 or 100 yards into the swamp. He left babbling and was still babbling when he was struck so I minused him. The vote went against him and he wanted to question it, which was fine. He opened some more and he struck him in again and I informed him I though he was still babbling but by this time I couldn't be sure so I didn't minus him. About the time I was writing the question on the card for the first minus the idiot came back to the cast with his head up babbling looking for the other dogs because they went left handed and he had went right. The handler shut up and took his minus that time and put his babbler back in the truck cause I popped him again when he came back. I don't remember if twice was an automatic scratch at that time or not but he got 200 minus within 5 minutes and he put his babbler back in the truck. That was a long time ago.

The rule is that at any time the dog can be minused for babbling if the judge feels the dog is babbling.

That first minus would have held up too, don't think it wouldn't have but the second was icing on the cake.

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Many years ago we had a guy that hunted a dog that ghost trailed. This dog would not babble in the typical "cut him loose and leave barking" manner. In fact, I never saw this happen where the dog babbled that way.
No, what this dog would do is go out about 100 feet from the cast and open and run a track that never ended until the hunt was over and then the owner had to hold up the entire cast while he somehow managed to "head him off at the pass". I don't know just how long this ridiculous dog would keep up the ghost trailing routine, I doubt that the owner knew. In three years of this guy showing up at just about every hunt around with his dog and of course my luck of drawing out with him just about every hunt....I never witnessed the dog tree anything.
Several times in hunts this dog would eventually make his way around to where we were and pass right by us. Back then, I am not certain, but I don't remember if there was a one hour rule to open the strike back up. Finally one night we had been standing in a big open field for a good 15 minutes or so listening to our dogs and here comes old blue trailing away right across in front of us...where no track was evident {there was a light dusting of snow} and the handler just could not believe his dog was minused. If I remember right back then you got scratched on the second offense. The judge was also the guide and when we recast on different ground he made a point to cut loose in a 150 acre field. Sure enough old blue struck about 100 feet out and no tracks could be seen. That time got him scratched and the man was really upset.
Usually though if the dog isn't doing it when he leaves and you don't see the dog it might not be a problem. I have had dogs come back to the cast and run around the handlers barking at nothing but I guess excitement, again..."where no track is evident".

babbling :when a dog opens 3 times or has been struck where no track is evident . humm if i was hunting a dog in a hunt and had to wonder how its strike was going to be scored by the judge each time it was cast i might also have to take a hard look at the dog and see if i have been objective in my thoughts about why it opened its mouth .lol how many times have you heard a handler say oh he has a cold nose and can smell one others cant track .lol oh he has a track .sure he does but often he is trailing another dog if he seems to be moving one out or worse not a dang thing .lol then you got the dogs that open just out of site and tree 1 mile away . does anyone who has been around hounds any amount of time think think the dog had a track when struck ? lol poor judging and a desire to win allow the babbling dog to flourish in the hunts and breeding paddocks . with the 1 hour hunts not going to go away soon ,lol any coon hunter who has been around hounds awhile knows if a dog has a track or not a majority of the time . some just choose to be silent about the subject or want that money maker . lol first and first type sell .who would buy a pup from anything less . lol

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Originally posted by thomasg
babbling :when a dog opens 3 times or has been struck where no track is evident . humm if i was hunting a dog in a hunt and had to wonder how its strike was going to be scored by the judge each time it was cast i might also have to take a hard look at the dog and see if i have been objective in my thoughts about why it opened its mouth .lol how many times have you heard a handler say oh he has a cold nose and can smell one others cant track .lol oh he has a track .sure he does but often he is trailing another dog if he seems to be moving one out or worse not a dang thing .lol then you got the dogs that open just out of site and tree 1 mile away . does anyone who has been around hounds any amount of time think think the dog had a track when struck ? lol poor judging and a desire to win allow the babbling dog to flourish in the hunts and breeding paddocks . with the 1 hour hunts not going to go away soon ,lol any coon hunter who has been around hounds awhile knows if a dog has a track or not a majority of the time . some just choose to be silent about the subject or want that money maker . lol first and first type sell .who would buy a pup from anything less . lol

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The only thing you need to minus a dog for babbling is a judge that says it's babbling and a majority of cast that agree with him. Does not matter whether he is babbling or not. That's all you have to have

If a dog leaves quietly and keeps going and then barks 3 times after the minute and is struck, its going to be awful hard to sell a minus for babbling. Who can say there was "no track evident", 1-2-300 yards out?

Yes, as judge you can say its your decision, you don't have to convince anyone and you can make that call. You can also be promptly voted down and not get handed the card by the club, after that. Also, keep in mind how the other casts are being judged...

I'm not saying you can't minus a dog for babbling after the minute, because technically you can. I'm just saying that if a dog leaves quietly, stays quiet for at least a minute, that shows he has some tendency to NOT bark where no track is evident, at least when turned loose. So when he does bark, and goes a couple minutes without barking again, you're going to say there was no track, there? C'mon...

Why do we have the 8 minute strike rule, then? If a dog(s) opens and a couple minutes go by, then I guess a judge can just make the command decision to go ahead and minus them for babbling? No way...

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Well, there's babbling and there's quitting or not being able to continue to run a track...that is why we have the 8 minute rule. It was never for giving minus points to a dog that babbled and then stopped, it was for dogs that started a legitimate track {off game or coon} and could not continue.
In a sense patches9452 is right...and I have had a dose of it. Years ago I hunted redbones and I had a female with 4 wins toward grand. I entered a hunt and drew out with 2 walker handlers that were buddies. They were also well known to the walker owning non-hunting judge.
We hunted on a large poultry farm and behind every big barn where they raised the chickens and turkeys they had big piles of dead ones. The whole place butted up to a big swamp so it was a handlers dream for running up a big score. The dog I had opened when she smelled a coon and the judge was so informed at the start. Every time we cut loose all the dogs opened immediately, but she opened first. Every time the dogs barked we treed a coon.
As soon as the judge realized that a walker was not going to win the cast like this he sent me to the truck. The dog was never warned for babbling before and not after. I stayed with the cast and did not see another coon that night. It's a proven fact that depending on who the judge is you can get scratched for babbling or scratched for treeing slick.

So basically what I get out of all of this is basically it's judges decision and then the cast to back him up if he thinks a dog has babbled? I haven't drawn out with any bad cast since I have been back into comp hunting that I think would minus a dog that was not doing anything wrong. I'll take my minus anytime my dog does something wrong because if he is doing something he is not supposed to do then he deserves it. Someone just hit a nerve the other day saying that he would minus one just because he thought it babbled. But for that to happen you have to have a 3-1 vote and that's highly unlikely unless you can see it happening.

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And to go one step further, you can still question the judges decision and take it to the MOH or panel. Yes, it is a judges decision, but he has to be able to substantiate the "no track evident" when asked why. This is when you find out whether or not you have a MOH that is worth having to start with. In the one case, we had no tracks of another animal in the pretty fresh light snow cover and no other dogs opening or even trying to smell like there could be something there....pretty compelling.
Your other remedy is always that you don't have to spend your time and hard earned money traveling to a club that cant do any better than that for judges, guides and MOH's.

All the first minute is for, is to allow dog to bark without striking. Don't get the rule mixed with PKC. In Pkc of a dog is struck under the minute let's say it goes in 50 yards barks 3 times then don't hear him for 150 yards then in PKC that dog would be minus for not carrying track out. In UKC this dog legitimately struck whether it was under the minute or over the minute you would not minus this dog in UKC rules

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babbling

I have a seven year old female that I have been wanting to put in a hunt. The only thing is is that she loves to Bark and BARK a lot but 90 percent of the time she has two lookin down. I would be afraid of getting minused or scratched because of that. Be I would like to know how we as humans can say that there is no track evident. I know I can't smell a coon trail I don't know about everyone else lol...

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Ive never had a lose mouth dog until now ,I have had 1st strike dogs and there is a difference , My little female Katy barks loading her riding down the road and all over the woods , without any dogs with her, Is she a crazy Idiot or happy, excited ? I made my mind up she a little of all of them , But I also decided she the best track dog I have ever raised and the most deadly accurate dog I have ever seen or raised she don't make a lot of trees but when she Parks you can load the gun , she seems to have an exceptional Nose , and when going across a open field she is smelling something and barking

so to get minused for babbling I see it in my future , but I really think the dog knows there is a track to be ran even if its in the air

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Re: Re: Re: Babbling Clarification

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Originally posted by gpent24
See this is understandable to me. If the dogs is barking when you cut them and barks the whole time, then comes back after all that that is completely warranted. But that goes in the category of almost being able to see them. A guy commented on another post and said that he would minus one that barked out of sight and the dog didn't come back. I was just curious how you would minus one that hadn't barked until after the minute for babbling. It would be near impossible unless the dog came back shortly after which in that case the dog is taking minus anyway.

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Re: babbling

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Originally posted by Tico
I have a seven year old female that I have been wanting to put in a hunt. The only thing is is that she loves to Bark and BARK a lot but 90 percent of the time she has two lookin down. I would be afraid of getting minused or scratched because of that. Be I would like to know how we as humans can say that there is no track evident. I know I can't smell a coon trail I don't know about everyone else lol...

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Babbling Clarification

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Originally posted by Rip
Hadn't barked till after the minute is a completely different question all together.

The discussion was CAN a dog be minused after the minute is up. Many, many people are confused by the minute and really honestly believe a dog can't be minused for babbling as long as you wait until after the minute to strike it. That is not true as was the case that I posted about above, the dog was babbling when he left, and that didn't change just because the minute was up. It was nice that he came back into the cast and proved the point, but it didn't change what he had done. People confuse what the minute does. The minute PROTECTS BABBLERS FOR ONE MINUTE, then after that the medicine can be dished out. That minute is likely the worst rule in UKC because it encourages babbling and people don't break a dog from it because they can get away with it and you never know when they need to "carry that hunnerd around with them" at the end of a cast. That's the reason I hate the minute so much, it gives the babbler time to get far enough in the woods to bring doubt into whether it's really struck or not and allows them to get away with it and use it when they need to to win. We had way fewer babblers with the old rule because it was easier to minus one for babbling and people broke them from it.

But to the way you posed it in your answere to me, If a dog didn't bark during the minute but was struck in there deep after the minute then I don't think anyone would even think the dog was babbling, much less try to minus him for it. That's a completely different situation.

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Re: Re: babbling

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Originally posted by JiM
We, as humans, can say there is no track evident based on how the dog uses its mouth, how its running. Sorta like pornography, I can't define it but I know it when I see (hear) it. An experienced dog man can tell a dog false barking from a dog that is trailing.

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Re: Babbling Clarification

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Originally posted by gpent24
Since the other the other thread kind of got hi jacked when it wasn't even about babbling. Here is my dilemma with everyone saying you can minus a dog for babbling after the minute and (i understand it is a rule) ...I have a dog that is going to bark frequently from the time he can smell a coon to the finish of a track no matter how hot or cold. Some people might not prefer this but I have never not once had a judge try to minus me or even bring it up. I have won cast with this dog. Now how would a judge know a dog was babbling in the hunt unless it was under a minute and he could see the dog? Like what would the situation be that a judge knew a dog babbled unless they could see the dog?

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Re: Re: babbling

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Originally posted by JiM
We, as humans, can say there is no track evident based on how the dog uses its mouth, how its running. Sorta like pornography, I can't define it but I know it when I see (hear) it. An experienced dog man can tell a dog false barking from a dog that is trailing.

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Bull crap if your dog barks before mine does the it's babbling!!!lmao

Re: Re: Re: babbling

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Originally posted by thomasg
.........we meet a long haired hippy riding a mountain bike .lol

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