UKC Forums - Master of Hounds VS. Hunt Director Format

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Posted by dbaker17 on 03-01-2017 01:24 AM:

Master of Hounds VS. Hunt Director Format

Seems to be getting harder to find people to do the job of being the MOH at some smaller hunts. What are your experiences with Hunt Director Format at the nite hunts and do you like it or not? Just looking for opinions.

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 03-01-2017 06:10 AM:

Our club has used a hunt director a few times and not had a problem.

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 03-01-2017 01:59 PM:

There is good and bad with using a hunt director. Our club will use a director at times, but we prefer the MOH format, due to not having to keep folks around for a panel to hear that one "shot in a million" type question that people will come up with trying to win, knowing full well they are wrong. One problem I see with the director is there is no stipulations on who you use, or better put the qualifications of who you use. Yes, many clubs have long standings members that are willing to serve, but do not hunt or know the rules. Their big club involvement is running the kitchen for the past "20" years. while it is nice to have those folks, I for one do not want them hearing a question and serving on a panel. I personally think those are the types that are easily influenced to vote with a more influenzal member of the club, whether that member is right or wrong, just because of who he is. While there are many MOH's who don't know the rules, at least they had to prove their ability to find them and use them once for their license test. That doesn't say they have kept up with the times, but I will take my chances in winning a case with an MOH and my rules knowledge any day verses the task of trying to beat a panel and what normally is a buddy system.

That said, they both work well if done right. The good thing about the Hunt director is most times you won't have to pay what has become a greedy bunch of MOH's who want way more money to do your hunt than it and they are worth. Choose the one that works for your club, and enjoy the hunts. That's the big thing to remember. Make it fun for those who come.

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Posted by yadkintar on 03-01-2017 02:19 PM:

Robert about twice a year I get called on to do a breed sectional were they want a licensed moh and bench show judge it's a three hour drive one way plus all together it's about 12 hrs of my time each day $100 is what I get so I don't think that is greedy at all. But I have let a couple from that. Area apprentice under me so they can handle it their selves. Hunt dirrector is cheap way out for the club but not sure I trust it yet at some of the small clubs but I haven't heard any negatives yet.

Posted by JiM on 03-01-2017 02:42 PM:

Six of one ahd half dozen of the other. Both are totally dependant upon the competance of the man or woman in charge.

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 03-01-2017 03:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Robert about twice a year I get called on to do a breed sectional were they want a licensed moh and bench show judge it's a three hour drive one way plus all together it's about 12 hrs of my time each day $100 is what I get so I don't think that is greedy at all. But I have let a couple from that. Area apprentice under me so they can handle it their selves. Hunt dirrector is cheap way out for the club but not sure I trust it yet at some of the small clubs but I haven't heard any negatives yet.

The $100.00 per night for a Larger breed hunt is reasonable with all the admin work you have to do there. That same amount to run a local hunt and show is greedy. I know of some cases around this area that clubs had to pay all the hunt profits for a bsj and moh. That's their business, and they can do as they please. I was just stating an opinion, which is mine only, and yes everybody has one. Whatever format you use, use it well and by the intended rules and it will work well.

Posted by Surveyor on 03-01-2017 03:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
There is good and bad with using a hunt director. Our club will use a director at times, but we prefer the MOH format, due to not having to keep folks around for a panel to hear that one "shot in a million" type question that people will come up with trying to win, knowing full well they are wrong. One problem I see with the director is there is no stipulations on who you use, or better put the qualifications of who you use. Yes, many clubs have long standings members that are willing to serve, but do not hunt or know the rules. Their big club involvement is running the kitchen for the past "20" years. while it is nice to have those folks, I for one do not want them hearing a question and serving on a panel. I personally think those are the types that are easily influenced to vote with a more influenzal member of the club, whether that member is right or wrong, just because of who he is. While there are many MOH's who don't know the rules, at least they had to prove their ability to find them and use them once for their license test. That doesn't say they have kept up with the times, but I will take my chances in winning a case with an MOH and my rules knowledge any day verses the task of trying to beat a panel and what normally is a buddy system.

That said, they both work well if done right. The good thing about the Hunt director is most times you won't have to pay what has become a greedy bunch of MOH's who want way more money to do your hunt than it and they are worth. Choose the one that works for your club, and enjoy the hunts. That's the big thing to remember. Make it fun for those who come.

So Rock, just what is the time of one of these greedy low life bunch of MOH's worth? Aren't you one of the elitist UKC field rep's that gets paid to follow the major events? It is this attitude and that of the MOH bashers on here that has made me regret ever becoming one. I have never charged a dime to officiate a hunt. Even gave the $100 I was given for a breed days hunt back to the club, BUT this is exactly the reason no one would want to become a MOH-spend countless hours studying the rules, reading the advisors to try to be ready to handle what ever question comes your way correctly, give up 6 to 8 (minimum) hours of your Friday or Saturday night, only to read that your in with a greedy bunch that doesn't know what they are doing!

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 03-01-2017 04:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
So Rock, just what is the time of one of these greedy low life bunch of MOH's worth? Aren't you one of the elitist UKC field rep's that gets paid to follow the major events? It is this attitude and that of the MOH bashers on here that has made me regret ever becoming one. I have never charged a dime to officiate a hunt. Even gave the $100 I was given for a breed days hunt back to the club, BUT this is exactly the reason no one would want to become a MOH-spend countless hours studying the rules, reading the advisors to try to be ready to handle what ever question comes your way correctly, give up 6 to 8 (minimum) hours of your Friday or Saturday night, only to read that your in with a greedy bunch that doesn't know what they are doing!

You got it wrong Mike. I didn't say it was bad to be paid, and I too don't charge the local clubs. The thing I said was it is bad when the club has only 3-5 dogs show up to hunt and have to pay an moh $100.00. well you do the math. There is two sides to every opinion and I see yours too. As for the elite, yes I am a field rep, but nobody has ever told me it was royality as you seem to suggest, and not once did I ever say anyone was low lifer, nor did I bash anyone. I just stated a well know fact, and one of the reasons the hunt director ever came to fruit in UKC. It is sad, but true. I am sorry if it offended you, and I never said your name. THE COLD HARD FACT IS SOME DO NOT KEEP UP WITH THE RULES and those are the ones I referred too, without calling any names. There is an old saying down south that comes to mind, the bit dog will holler. I can see where you may have thought I was referring to the moh in my statement of worth, but it was meant to be more than the hunt is worth. A 3 dog hunt won't pay any bills when you pay the moh and the dog and license fees, guess what? you are in the hole. That's what I was referring too and not you. I don't even know you to my knowledge, at least not by name anyway. Sorry for the offense, but I will stand by what I said.

Posted by yadkintar on 03-01-2017 05:21 PM:

I think the last one I did I left home at 3:00 in the after noon got home at 5:30 the next morning but it was a good bunch of guys and I was glad to help now if only 5 dogs show up I won't charge them you know if everybody takes turn about as hunt dirrector one guy takes his bench show license in each club I get to hunt and we are all happy lol but I will help when asked.

Posted by Tim MACHA on 03-01-2017 06:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
So Rock, just what is the time of one of these greedy low life bunch of MOH's worth? Aren't you one of the elitist UKC field rep's that gets paid to follow the major events? It is this attitude and that of the MOH bashers on here that has made me regret ever becoming one. I have never charged a dime to officiate a hunt. Even gave the $100 I was given for a breed days hunt back to the club, BUT this is exactly the reason no one would want to become a MOH-spend countless hours studying the rules, reading the advisors to try to be ready to handle what ever question comes your way correctly, give up 6 to 8 (minimum) hours of your Friday or Saturday night, only to read that your in with a greedy bunch that doesn't know what they are doing!

In defense of Rock, being a field rep is not all peaches and cream. At the end of the year, I would say the pay just covers expenses from door back to door. It is the love of the sport that keeps them in the game.

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Posted by jculler8 on 03-01-2017 06:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
There is good and bad with using a hunt director. Our club will use a director at times, but we prefer the MOH format, due to not having to keep folks around for a panel to hear that one "shot in a million" type question that people will come up with trying to win, knowing full well they are wrong. One problem I see with the director is there is no stipulations on who you use, or better put the qualifications of who you use. Yes, many clubs have long standings members that are willing to serve, but do not hunt or know the rules. Their big club involvement is running the kitchen for the past "20" years. while it is nice to have those folks, I for one do not want them hearing a question and serving on a panel. I personally think those are the types that are easily influenced to vote with a more influenzal member of the club, whether that member is right or wrong, just because of who he is. While there are many MOH's who don't know the rules, at least they had to prove their ability to find them and use them once for their license test. That doesn't say they have kept up with the times, but I will take my chances in winning a case with an MOH and my rules knowledge any day verses the task of trying to beat a panel and what normally is a buddy system.

That said, they both work well if done right. The good thing about the Hunt director is most times you won't have to pay what has become a greedy bunch of MOH's who want way more money to do your hunt than it and they are worth. Choose the one that works for your club, and enjoy the hunts. That's the big thing to remember. Make it fun for those who come.

2-3 Folks DO NOT need to "Stay around to form a panel". As far as my understanding of the rules of a HD go, the HD is the one who "stays" at the club and forms the panel of 3. He may be on the panel, but may not rule solely on questions brought in from the woods. The way I see it, you only need 1 person, the HD, to stay and he can form a panel from there if there are any questions.

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Posted by dbaker17 on 03-01-2017 06:43 PM:

Thank you. That's good information.

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
There is good and bad with using a hunt director. Our club will use a director at times, but we prefer the MOH format, due to not having to keep folks around for a panel to hear that one "shot in a million" type question that people will come up with trying to win, knowing full well they are wrong. One problem I see with the director is there is no stipulations on who you use, or better put the qualifications of who you use. Yes, many clubs have long standings members that are willing to serve, but do not hunt or know the rules. Their big club involvement is running the kitchen for the past "20" years. while it is nice to have those folks, I for one do not want them hearing a question and serving on a panel. I personally think those are the types that are easily influenced to vote with a more influenzal member of the club, whether that member is right or wrong, just because of who he is. While there are many MOH's who don't know the rules, at least they had to prove their ability to find them and use them once for their license test. That doesn't say they have kept up with the times, but I will take my chances in winning a case with an MOH and my rules knowledge any day verses the task of trying to beat a panel and what normally is a buddy system.

That said, they both work well if done right. The good thing about the Hunt director is most times you won't have to pay what has become a greedy bunch of MOH's who want way more money to do your hunt than it and they are worth. Choose the one that works for your club, and enjoy the hunts. That's the big thing to remember. Make it fun for those who come.

Posted by yadkintar on 03-01-2017 07:25 PM:

You want to feel some pressure ? Go do one of those breed sectional bench shows when you got 30 or more dogs showing and they are all the same color except there are two of the other color that are super good looking now you talk about pressure lol you make the wrong decision and man you get real unpopular real Quik lol.

Posted by sox12 on 03-01-2017 08:27 PM:

I have been to a many in my day of breed sectionals,and seen dogs getting picked that shouldn't won because a off bred hounds was a lot better,to me the judge wasn't a truly good judge.if you judge the dogs for what they are and not the color or breed,the best one should be picked what ever breed event it is.but you hardly ever see a off breed win at a different breed show know matter how good the off bred dog is.

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Posted by yadkintar on 03-01-2017 08:53 PM:

When you make your decision and sombody takes their hat off and goes to stomping it saying I knew it , I knew it he is partial to ----------- dogs get the rope lol !!!

Or they bring their little ones holding the king or queen of show trophy saying mr tar I sure would like to win this trophy with my daddy's dog lol.

Posted by sox12 on 03-01-2017 09:54 PM:

your right on a lot of things

Posted by yadkintar on 03-01-2017 10:08 PM:

I am just kinda telling it like it is with a little humor I go right by the book whom ever it is don't matter to me I just judge the dog. As far as the moh part it takes a special person to do it I for one at times had to do it when I did not want to so the hunt dirrector format was kinda a blessing when I am asked I will go and I will be fair if they don't have many dogs I don't charge but I have spent many hours in all kinds of club houses by my self for hours you need to appreciate your moh because after all the lost sleep maybe get a little in their pickup their weekend ruined time away from their family eating well some of its good some not so good and then some guy because you don't tell him what he wants to hear in his favor your stupid or you got bought off or you got a buddy get what I am saying ?

Posted by Cowboyred on 03-01-2017 11:31 PM:

HD/MOH

The HD format is basically the way it was up until the mid 80's with the addition of the use of a panel to rule on questions. We have been using the HD option at all of our hunts that don't require a MOH since it became available (4 clubs). The biggest issue I see is getting people to stick around after they are done hunting so that you have enough people to form a panel if necessary, let alone a group of qualified people. So far, knock on wood, we've not run into any problems.

Posted by mike zoulek on 03-02-2017 03:01 AM:

We use the HD format and it works well for small hunts, but on the other hand it takes one more dog out of a small hunt to have a guy sit back at the club house. Let the HD hunt he can`t make any rulings without a panel anyway. Just my opinion.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 03-02-2017 04:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
2-3 Folks DO NOT need to "Stay around to form a panel". As far as my understanding of the rules of a HD go, the HD is the one who "stays" at the club and forms the panel of 3. He may be on the panel, but may not rule solely on questions brought in from the woods. The way I see it, you only need 1 person, the HD, to stay and he can form a panel from there if there are any questions.

J C I guess my math is messed up. Its almost t
2 AM at this hunt. Everyone has gone home from all the cast that were out except the last one which is coming in with a question. Now where is the HD to get his/her panel from if you didn't keep someone around? No they do not have to stay there during the hunt as the HD does, but everyone can not go home until that last cast is in, or you have to call folks out the bed to come hear a question. SO YES!!! 2-3 do have to be around until all are in, or you have to hope for no questions. Run yours any way you want, but as for me, I will go by the rules and make them work.

Posted by jculler8 on 03-02-2017 07:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
J C I guess my math is messed up. Its almost t
2 AM at this hunt. Everyone has gone home from all the cast that were out except the last one which is coming in with a question. Now where is the HD to get his/her panel from if you didn't keep someone around? No they do not have to stay there during the hunt as the HD does, but everyone can not go home until that last cast is in, or you have to call folks out the bed to come hear a question. SO YES!!! 2-3 do have to be around until all are in, or you have to hope for no questions. Run yours any way you want, but as for me, I will go by the rules and make them work.

Not battling about this, but there's ALWAYS more than the HD around at the end waiting on a trophy/win slip from their respective cast. The HD cannot fill out his report until ALL cards are turned in, meaning there will be more than 1 person with nite hunt knowledge in the clubhouse. I get what you are saying, but the rules do not state that 3 panel members or even 2 panel members plus the HD must stay with the HD "in case of a question".

In fact I believe this is the #1 problem... the fact that 3 do not need to be there, yet clubs are iffy on who to trust on a panel to make a good decision and who they do not.

It's like going to find an attorney. You can get a public defender or you can go and get the top of the line to fight your case!

Posted by Emily on 03-02-2017 11:15 PM:

I've been a hunt director at smaller clubs many times, at my own club and others that know me, sometimes drafted at the last minute. I probably should get my MOH license, but haven't, and I don't know anyone else who has since hunt directors were allowed. There really is very little incentive for someone who has been serving as a hunt director to become a MOH these days. Our club is small, and we only have one MOH left--the others have all passed on. Our one MOH is no longer called on much by the other nearby clubs, even though he has a very good reputation and never accepts more than a free meal for it. Clubs just don't like asking favors, even though he has been very good at talking down poor sports.

We don't have cell phone service at our clubhouse. I have never had to put together a panel, and would probably have to send people driving around to roust some older guys I trust from their beds if I did. If anyone from our club is hanging around when a question comes in, its probably someone who doesn't competition hunt and would have to look up the rules. I do keep a rulebook and Advisor handy, and I generally know who will push the rules to the edge, who will push past the edge, and who takes it pretty easy, but there's almost always someone I've never met before hunting.

I would prefer having a MOH if I were hunting, but it isn't always possible. I suspect UKC would rather there were more hunts, so HD is the way things are going to be at smaller events.

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Posted by coonsmen on 03-03-2017 06:08 AM:

I have hunted under both but I can honestly say I am happy I had a panel the only time I needed one. One of the members of the panel in my situation was usually the master of hounds for that club and he did not have a clear understanding of the rules. Thank god the others did.
Like others have said. If you have a knowledgeable person put into the position of master of hounds I think it's great but if they don't know the rules front and back, they need not be a decision maker.

Posted by yadkintar on 03-03-2017 12:24 PM:

Every moh I know knows the rules simple as that now that being said the rules are on the back of the card in black and white where the problem is when sombody comes in with a stupid question or trying to twist the rules if I figure out your not being honest with me I will be like judge Judy ...... Case dismissed ...... But maybe that why I haven't had a question brought back in years lol.

Posted by shawnstovall on 03-03-2017 01:38 PM:

I am a master hounds and I don't charge the local clubs but dinner and my drinks now if i gotta drive an hour or more then i charge but that depends on the turn out for the bench and the hunt. I always make sure the club is making money for the time.

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