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Question for the genetic experts?

We discuss a lot about breeding better coondogs and there are a lot of theories about how it should be done.
Since Bone Collector is getting some deserved credit for reproducing lets try and understand why.

Any history on the cross that produced him. Was it one made by someone with a master plan in mind that knew they had something. Or was it like a lot of them. Breeding good dogs hoping for something.

Any thoughts by knowledgeable breeders on what dogs behind him made it work as it apparently has. In two ways with Bone being a top coonhound and top reproducer.

Doug in no way is any of this meant to disrespect your accomplishments with Bone but I feel it gives us a good example to discuss and perhaps understand the breeding process of coon hounds a little more.

Any History on Bone including his breeding and environment may help clear the fog with some of the breeding mysteries we so often discuss.

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Bruce from the outside looking in, his pedigree is made up of nice reproducers, and a good balance of track and tree dogs.
Not jammed full of tree dogs. Zeb, Hillbilly, Gomer, keep a balance with some of the tree dogs he has. Also a good looking bunch of hounds. Just my take

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

There is no way to explain it Bruce !! I have studied pedigrees my whole life I have seen dogs with pedigrees and these were way above average coondogs that I thought there was no way they could not be a top reproducer but they just did not have it. But I for one am glad he came to us when he did because bone is dominatly reproducing traits that fixes these unexceptable faults that are now used to an advantage in the competition world bone puts the true meaning to the phrase : coon eyes matter he was the answer to fix the breeding mistake I made and it only takes one mistake to mess up years of a good thing.

I am no expert either, but I completely agree with Robert. It is not easy to explain nor something that is very predictable. Reproducing is a product of heritable traits and the ability to pass them on, but I don't think it is as easy to explain as 'line bred' or 'he's a top coonhound'. While Fred was bred back to his mother and it 'worked', there are plenty of examples when it didn't work. I believe the best reproducers are products of aligned genetic traits and those traits are passed on to the majority of the offspring produced. If you really look at Bone's pedigree, his bloodline isn't that much different than a lot of studs--I see a mix of different bloodlines back aways and so trait selection was important and what the actual dogs used passed on. I think too often we come up with reasons why a dog reproduces after we find out that they do, rather than have a well thought out plan breeding a reproducing dog. Lee Logan was quoted in an article one time as saying his biggest breeding disappointment came from owning Grand Nite females that were absolutely top dogs from good litters and they didn't reproduce their likeness.

Good subject and I look forward to hearing other thoughts.

GES

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I would say you guys are on to something. I used the example of a female called Hardwood Dixie that was bred the same way. Several top reproducing dogs with her positioned in their pedigree.

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Ya Swamps mother and Rats mother were both out of half brother/sister crosses.

I think every now and then the stars just align perfectly. You can't seem to duplicate it even with the exact same
genetic rrecipe.

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Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

But now comes the true test is there any of his offspring going to reproduce like him is one of them going to be anouther bone or will it just end there.

I would breed him back to a daughter with the same traits

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Interesting Conrad.......what would you expect to get? Fred was bred to his mother, but Homer wasn't duplicate of either parent as far as I have heard AND I have never heard of any other littermates of Homer. If that was the secret combination of breeding, then why didn't they make that cross sooner and more often? The tricky part of genetics is that there is multiple gene combinations that produce certain traits with some being dominant and other recessive. Couple that with an animal that has multiple embryos and consequently gives multiple birth, you get a significant amount of variance even when inbreeding. Think about this, all dogs within a given breed are inbred to a point, otherwise, they wouldn't be 'pure bred' and produce true to type. Yet, within any given breed there is significant color variation, voice difference, hunting style, temperament, etc. Also, a study of Foxhound breeding has shown that without strict selection for traits, inbreeding alone can lead to smaller dogs and loss of voice volume and clarity.

One other thing, the Raccoon Valley Queen female is family bred on Stylish Banjo and Lipper. Where have we seen those crosses before?

heritability

I deal with genetics everyday in dairy cattle industry every trait has a heritability
percentage, basicaly it is how easy it is to breed in.with that be said it could be say dogs mouth is 48 percent heritability and nose is 20 percent you will gain the mouth faster then the nose in milk cows stature is the highest that's why you can take a short cow and make tall in 1 generation. I have been doing this for a job for 25 years all the greatest transmitting bulls never gave a us a son that even came close to them, they are genetic freaks. Today we gauge our bulls by the use of genomics a genetic marker system that takes numbers of the same traits of dna and counts them to predict the bulls outcome of there traits it is low reliability but a good tool that gets better with the more info we get it, maybe coming to the dog world at some point but like all things it is driven buy dollars.

I think and I can say it again you can not duplicate it I tried every way in the world to get back one of my all time favorite dogs through trying every cross you can do I think I made it worse instead of better. It is just somthing that happens my dog reproduced on everything I run under him but his grand pups just did not measure up but one shot of bone fixed it and I am going to get some more and at 58 yrs old that will finish me up lol!!

We cannot ever duplicate an individual but we can set type.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Conrad I guess you can tell I am a Yadkin river lover the dogs out of rattler were some of the best I ever unsnapped down here where a dog has to work for a living my deacon dog was a grand pup he was the best I ever unsnapped his pups were very nice dogs anybody would love to own then it went to dookie lol! Why because I was always told keep the Yadkin River with Yadkin River keep it true and tight the one time I didn't it went to dookie so then you have to find somthing that will fix your mistake or throw it away I am to long in the tooth to start over bone fixed my problem if you had to go back to skinning coons for a living the bone dogs would feed your family that's how I judge a dog that's the only way I know how.

So I guess my question to you guy's is this
Bone is reproducing across the board: So do you just outcross till he is gone and wait 10 more yrs till the next one comes along?
Or do you try to set his type and maintain some consistency of offspring that in a few years someone will say that dog carries Bone traits?
I see a great opportunity for a young man to set a breeding program for the future.With a solid hound.

Lipper examle: Cannot reproduce Lipper, but you sure know a Lipper hound when you see one and when you hear one
Not perfect in any way, but a tool that I can use in my breeding program if i am lacking in those area's.

For those not wanting to raise litters, or the time to do it, better get some Bone while you can

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Conrad I just want some of what you got. Lipper no !! I been there done that I was glad when he left Texas I hunted dogs for the public at that time lol!!

Yadkin Tar, I am working on something that would crank your truck It's Down the road.
But this is a Bone post and he deserves to be talked about.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Conrad, I am not critical of your thought of breeding a daughter back to him, I merely am asking your reasoning for crossing that way. My point is this--where does he get his ability AND what is the genetic pattern that allows him to reproduce? I assume that several folks think he gets this from being out of Homer (Fred x Queen) because he was inbred. BUT, how do we know that Hillbilly Bonnie which is his grandmother on the bottom side didn't provide him with the genetic material we seek? Does it come from the multiple crosses of Skuna River Lipper? Is it the combination of mixing Hayes with Skuna River? Was a little bit of Sackett Jr through Jake that makes the difference? Bone himself is a product of an line bred dog (Homer) being outcrossed. Interestingly, Sackett Jr was similar in this regard--Yadkin River x Dohoney's Breeding (spring Creek x old Harry). Basically, they are a cross of Hershberger dogs (Sailor) x Banjo x Finley River. Aren't all Walker dogs basically that same mixture? I am enjoying hearing others thoughts and getting some new ideas to consider.

I bought a male and a female pup out of a bone gyp and lock box (uncle x niece) . I plan on crossing my female back to a skuna river Fred bred dog in the future if she finishes out to meet most of my standards. I think its raccoon valley queen in these dogs that through most of the traits i am looking for.

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Are top dogs the results of breeding experts or are breeding experts the results of top dogs.

I think it is more the result of a top dog showing up and it making experts out of the people who made the cross. I am not saying there isn't a reason things works out. I am saying breeders have not figured it out. Anyone can breed for their own purpose and say they are happy with their results because they own the rights to them. Like all these babies on Facebook. Half of them look a lot less than beautiful and I have never seen anyone tell the truth about how most of them really look. They say all the babies are beautiful. That is how we look at our dogs, especially when you breed them.
I have seen a lot of failures the breeding experts have done and don't want to talk about.

I think like most things in life, being HONEST is the answer. You take what you have, give it a try, HONESTLY evaluate it and go from there. If it reproduces others might figure that out before you do. If it doesn't and your honest about it then no harm done and you move on. The moving on is where most fail. Doesn't take a lifetime to figure out if you have something but a lifetime is to long to waste if you don't.

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"Boss Lights"

quote:

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Originally posted by SwampCreekHound
I think its raccoon valley queen in these dogs that through most of the traits i am looking for.

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The only consistency is inconsistency
GES, I like people to ask why, its the only way we learn, I have spent my life asking why, funny very few can tell you why, instead they tell you how they feel or what they "think".

The exceptional come along only so often, lets say the ones where everything is lined up, that is as close in this world as it gets! I say start from there and try and set type, if you can.
You will not recreate the individual but the farther from the box of chocolates you get, the better off your program will be.

How did the exceptional happen? (God)
Now make that exceptional one a family line(set type) and focus on the traits that made them great.
If they do not pass on traits, they must be culled from breeding.

Here's the kicker, each family line may be lacking somewhere, but when crossed on another family line they may produce exceptional together. But the offspring may or may not reproduce. So we have to keep,family lines going to make this happen. It's what happened back in the day to make the Foundation studs we know today.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

.

Conrad I like what you wrote.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

GES

Most of the dogs i have hunted with that i have liked or seen traits that i would like in a dog have her in there pedigree. I never hunted with her. She may not be it and the dogs i have gave her credit for may have got it else where but she was all they all have in common. I have went by what the owners have said and my memory for the most part. I have not compared papers on all of them. Most of them are out of power pack, Box, and bone others just had her in there pedigree that i could remember by name. All in all just a guess.

We can speculate and plan crosses til the cows come home but the fact remains if there was a formula to create a reproducer of the caliber of Bone for instance, then one would come along way more often then they do.

__________________
Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

Here is another question... Why does it seem that the second cross isn't as quite as good as the first time you make the cross?