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-- Pup Performance (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928464845)

Pup Performance

Of the dogs you have raised that have gone on to be top dogs (or way better than average), how many nights in the woods did it take before you thought you may have something special? (by that I mean they were hunting on their own, running and treeing their own coon, and maybe putting it on another decent dog once in awhile).

Did you do a lot of prep work (for this natural) prior to taking them to the woods?

Were all of your top dogs naturals?

How many nights did it take for them to really go hunting (at least 20+ minutes away from you)?

Did any of the young dogs that did not go hunting right away (in 10 nights or less) go onto make above average dogs?

Before anyone gets up in arms about stupid questions, I am not a professional dog trainer and, for purposes of this post, I am interested in breeding, not training.

I am more interested in the link between a pup being a natural hunting dog and then how many really finish out to be a top performer. I am also interested in the way your dogs finish out that do not show exceptional early progress.

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Home of the Red Solo Cup

Some pups that start early turn out to be top dogs. Some pups that start early don't ever shift into that higher gear that it takes to be a top dog. Some pups that take some work and start later turn out to be top dogs. Some pups that start later don't. "In my experience" there isn't really a correlation between starting early and finishing into a top dog.

But with that said, it is a lot more exciting or more fun to hunt one that starts early and with very little effort. But then it is very disapointing when they don't continue to progress. You get your hopes up only to be let down. Sometimes I think that it would be better if they just start slowly and then continue to improve slowly.

Richard--This has been my experience also.

I have talked to a lot of people that say they give up on them early (after only 20 trips, or so, with what they feel is enough prep work)...I respect their point of view and position on this, but, they may be giving up on a top dog.

However, is there a correlation between going hunting early and making a top dog? Most of the dogs I raised that I consider above average, went hunting early.

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Home of the Red Solo Cup

It sure is hard to train or "give them the opportunity to reach their full potential" if they won't go hunting. Actually, I just put them up and keep getting them back out until they will go hunting. They just hang out in my backyard until then. Some will go at 4 mos and some at 14 mos. Just going with another dog has never been a problem for me. Neither is trailing and opening on track. But locking down on a tree is where I run into problems. But we don't have very many coons and therefore don't make very many trees. But we do a lot of "hunting" and tracking. I think that people in different parts of the country have different experiences depending on their coon population.

The less nights needed the better and they was all good reproducers some had prep work some didn't
The more traits that come natural that you want the better those are the ones they will pass on imo
The better ones I've had would go 3-700 yards strike and tree on there first to third night in the woods alone
I'm partners on a dog right now first night with old dog split treed first drop next night went 500 struck treed alone 9 months old has not been hunted hard this fall winter should tell the story on him
Zero prep work beside letting him run loose on the farm

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mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

Great questions.

quote:

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Originally posted by RedScorpion
Richard--This has been my experience also.

I have talked to a lot of people that say they give up on them early (after only 20 trips, or so, with what they feel is enough prep work)...I respect their point of view and position on this, but, they may be giving up on a top dog.

However, is there a correlation between going hunting early and making a top dog? Most of the dogs I raised that I consider above average, went hunting early.

---

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Darrin Gher
Elbridge Redbones
Home of
GRNTCH PR' Steve-O and Chili's Red Flow
NTCH PR' Twisters Musical Red Huey DNA-VIP Perf Sire 06'07 Deceased 11/07
Former Home of
NTCH 'PR' Swann's Lonesome Red Music/ Kitty
NTCH. CH PR' SawBlade Red Reckon
NTCH. CH PR' Gher's Timber Mt. Brandy
Breeder of
GRNTCH PR' Daugherty's Red BUBBA
NTCH CH PR' BA'S Tree Top Rockin Griddle
NTCH PR' Lickcreek Backwoods Lil Red Annie

Yes Darrin, "perfect situation" has a lot to do with it. If there are 2-3 coons in a woods and a pup has an opportunity to split tree, then you will get very different results than from a spot where there is only 1 coon in a woods and they have to tree that one. If an old experienced dog does not tree a coon in every spot that you drop him, it is hard to expect a pup to.
And "in my opinion" hunting a pup with the same dog every night is good for pleasure dogs but hunting a pup with a lot of different dogs is better if they are going to make big time comp dogs. I think that hauling them around and hunting them with a lot of different dogs just gets them ready for what is to come. And it shows you just what you have.

Richard

Richard,
Maybe you misunderstood me. I was talking about people giving up on a dog after 20 nights, then finding another dog, giving up after 20 nights and finding another....

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Darrin Gher
Elbridge Redbones
Home of
GRNTCH PR' Steve-O and Chili's Red Flow
NTCH PR' Twisters Musical Red Huey DNA-VIP Perf Sire 06'07 Deceased 11/07
Former Home of
NTCH 'PR' Swann's Lonesome Red Music/ Kitty
NTCH. CH PR' SawBlade Red Reckon
NTCH. CH PR' Gher's Timber Mt. Brandy
Breeder of
GRNTCH PR' Daugherty's Red BUBBA
NTCH CH PR' BA'S Tree Top Rockin Griddle
NTCH PR' Lickcreek Backwoods Lil Red Annie

Oh my goodness, I surely did. That is what happens when you get old.

The most "natural" hound I ever trained was hunted 3 short nights with my older hound at the time, and the 3rd night he treed with her. By the 6th night ever in the woods(never saw a cage coon either), he split treed 50 yds from the old dog and had the meat. ( He was 10 months old.)
He was an line bred ACE pup named Dunkels Screaming Red Bandit- I started him for Joe. After a month of hunting, He was more consistent than most hounds are after a year. He died his first season. I was fortunate to have a pup from an accidental breeding, and he is also turning into a nice hound. He treed his first @ 7 months old. Now he is almost 2 yrs, and treeing coon every night out.

I don't see any correlation between quick starting/ top finished hounds. It depends on the dog- they will let you know when they are ready to be hunted. Some it is 5 months(RARE, but it happens), Most are 9-12 months that I have worked with.

I actually think many dogs with lots of potential are ruined by owners who see the potential and pound a young dog way to much when they are young. Take it easy and let them grow up.

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Dave Miller
5634994055
NtCh Miller's Alone Again Hannah

Pups

I have not won any big hunts or handled any big name dogs. I have started a pup or two every year for the past 10 years. There is no cookie cutter way that has been effective on all of these pups. I have found that a few of these pups were naturals and had a desire to please and they were the easiest to train. I have a female that is 4 that was the most stubborn dog I have ever started, and didn't make a tree till 13 months old. Now I feel that she is a top hound around my area, she wins about half her casts hunting against the grand nite at our club hunts.
I think that you need a pup that you like, if you don't like it you won't put in the time on it.
I think that a pup is more of a natural can be singled out from the start and by 20 nights you should know if you like the dog enough to finish it or sell it and get a different dog.
I can make a dog stay out of my sight while hunting, I cannot make them hunt till they find a coon and tree it every time I turn them loose and stay treed till I get there, that the dog has to desire to do.
Very few dogs make top dogs, more young dogs are runined by taking them to the hunts or out with a friends old dog before they are ready. Around here most guys are oblivious to if there dog is cold trailing a deer and falls off and trees a coon or if it ran a coon track all the way to the tree.
Just because it's pedigree is stacked doesn't mean anything about a pup.

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Nt Ch Turnback Creek Ike (JonxMissi)
Nt Ch Turnback Creek Kitty (single reg)
NtCh PR Turnback Creek Jammer RIP
(Steve-0 Chile cross first litter, C0-owned with Kim B Jones)
NtCh PR Hatcher Hill R.J.
RIP old friend