UKC Forums - Your Dog and Slick Trees?

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Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 10-13-2016 07:26 PM:

Your Dog and Slick Trees?

For the guys the coon hunt in all registries. If your serious about it, what is an acceptable percentage for your Competition Dog.
I am not talking about what you can win with. Some nights you can win with 5 circle trees. I am talking about what the serious guys feel they need from their dog to be at the upper level of any competition hunt.

I wil start it off.
80% will win most of your cast and you have a dog that you can be competitive with in most cast.
70% will leave you disappointed a lot of nights. Dog done fair but just didn't win.
60% you think you have a coonhound and can't figure out why you can't win more.
50% if your hauling this dog around your wasting money and time.

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Posted by Billy George on 10-13-2016 07:35 PM:

Re: Your Dog and Slick Trees?

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey

I wil start it off.
80% will win most of your cast and you have a dog that you can be competitive with in most cast.
70% will leave you disappointed a lot of nights. Dog done fair but just didn't win.
60% you think you have a coonhound and can't figure out why you can't win more.
50% if your hauling this dog around your wasting money and time.

I'd have to agree...

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Posted by N Williams on 10-13-2016 09:32 PM:

I have been compitition coonhunting for a while now. I've hunted with a lot of the winningest hounds of all time. I would say there is less than 5 hounds in this country that could be hauled around to 2 big hunts a month. 24 big hunts a year. A stay at a true 70% or better accuracy. In other words better than 70% of the time gets you plused up. I've went through spurts where mine stated above 85% for a while. You haul them around Enuff they will have plenty of nights they look like crap. It's the whole PEEK thing.

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 10-13-2016 09:42 PM:

Nate i agree, but this post isn't about what will work. 60% keeps a lot of guys on the road. It is about if your serious and you evaluating if you need to move to another dog or just go to more hunts. Then you better settle on the 80% dog. 70% will get you wins. Just not the wins that will pay the bills to haul the dog around.

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Posted by N Williams on 10-13-2016 09:51 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Nate i agree, but this post isn't about what will work. 60% keeps a lot of guys on the road. It is about if your serious and you evaluating if you need to move to another dog or just go to more hunts. Then you better settle on the 80% dog. 70% will get you wins. Just not the wins that will pay the bills to haul the dog around.

If your dogs at 80% it's paying the bills. It's hard to keep one there for long. Atleast one that don't take all night to get it done.

Posted by Well Started on 10-14-2016 02:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by N Williams
I have been compitition coonhunting for a while now. I've hunted with a lot of the winningest hounds of all time. I would say there is less than 5 hounds in this country that could be hauled around to 2 big hunts a month. 24 big hunts a year. A stay at a true 70% or better accuracy. In other words better than 70% of the time gets you plused up. I've went through spurts where mine stated above 85% for a while. You haul them around Enuff they will have plenty of nights they look like crap. It's the whole PEEK thing.

Not to get this off on another trail, but are you saying this is a result of competition hunting? And if so what's the main cause, other dogs? What?

I just pleasure hunt and realize dogs go thru stages where they're just clicking, and other times not so much, maybe not hunting like they've been, ect. But if I have a 3 yr old going backwards on accuracy that dog better be not feeling good, because otherwise it's not going to like the grouchy, irritable, miserable cuss I would soon turn into.

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Posted by Well Started on 10-14-2016 02:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by N Williams
I have been compitition coonhunting for a while now. I've hunted with a lot of the winningest hounds of all time. I would say there is less than 5 hounds in this country that could be hauled around to 2 big hunts a month. 24 big hunts a year. A stay at a true 70% or better accuracy. In other words better than 70% of the time gets you plused up. I've went through spurts where mine stated above 85% for a while. You haul them around Enuff they will have plenty of nights they look like crap. It's the whole PEEK thing.

Posted by MR.RATMAN on 10-14-2016 03:02 AM:

I'm hunting one now that I would say is 60%, but is it because the leaves are on or because I suck at finding coon ????. I know when the leaves finally drop I'm going to have a better idea on if its me or the dog falling up short. If he is falling up a short it will be education time because I want 80% either a den or coon.

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 10-14-2016 03:45 AM:

Accuracy percentage

I realize you are only asking from the serious comp hunters, but by doing so you must realize these same folks are not going to give you the answer you may be looking for unless you are (only) a serious comp hunter as well.

I say that because the serious comp hunter may not necessarily have any interest in maintaining a particular bloodline. There ONLY goal is how to win the next cast. Now there are a few serious comp hunters that are breeders also, but for the most part the real serious comp hunters are on somebody's payroll.

Now for this Ole country boy who has never been to more than 20 casts per year, but hardly ever less than 7-10 casts per year for the past 40 plus years, but hunt 2-3 nights per week, using UKC's rules requirements for determining how my dog(s) are progressing, I use the following scale for accuracy.

90% accuracy of an actual coon OR a legitimate den tree Is ideal for me. Legitimate den for me is any tree that has a hole the size of a baseball or larger. Anywhere a coon's head goes, if the hole is deep enough it's body will follow. I don't want one 100% accurate as that style dog will leave as many coon sitting up as it will stay treed on, when working medium to cold tracks in my area.

80% accuracy is more the norm for an average of where many of the good dogs from my line usually end up. I can live with 80% so long as the dog is a chop mouthed tree dog, hunts out to 600-1000 yards by it's self, and is absolutely straight on coon. One other thing this dog must also have, is to very seldom locate on trees and then move on. I like my dogs to either be tracking OR treeing but I don't like them to try to do both at the same time.

70% accuracy is MY BOTTOM LINE. Anything below 70% average in any 30 day window after turning 3 years of age is just not going to get it at my house. I don't care how pretty a tree dog it is, if it's less than 70% at 3 years of age it's going to fall below my standard. I know dogs can have bad nights, bad weeks, bad months, etc. but they better not have two bad months in a row or they will be finding some one else to love them, LOL!!

I'm certainly not the hardest comp hunter, and I'm a LONG ways from the smartest breeder, but I have been breeding what I hunt, and hunting what I breed for many years now, but that 70% number has always been my tolerance level for accuracy since about 1978.

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 10-14-2016 11:42 AM:

Re: Your Dog and Slick Trees?

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I wil start it off.
80% will win most of your cast and you have a dog that you can be competitive with in most cast.
70% will leave you disappointed a lot of nights. Dog done fair but just didn't win.
60% you think you have a coonhound and can't figure out why you can't win more.
50% if your hauling this dog around your wasting money and time.

Bruce, accuracy and percentages have been beat to death on here. During these many beatings, I have come to find multiple definitions of accuracy percentages. Can you please define your meaning?

My definition is based on a year round basis, coon seen or coon not seen. Dens count as a coon NOT seen! With this definition, 80% is a freak of nature, very very few exist. Even the two out of three (66%) models are not out there in bunches and what I would consider well above average . 50% is still above average, with 35-40% being what I would consider a national average. Some folks claim geographical location is a contributing factor.

A can of worms type conversation

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Posted by Surveyor on 10-14-2016 01:25 PM:

Re: Re: Your Dog and Slick Trees?

quote:
Originally posted by Vic Stoll
Bruce, accuracy and percentages have been beat to death on here. During these many beatings, I have come to find multiple definitions of accuracy percentages. Can you please define your meaning?

My definition is based on a year round basis, coon seen or coon not seen. Dens count as a coon NOT seen! With this definition, 80% is a freak of nature, very very few exist. Even the two out of three (66%) models are not out there in bunches and what I would consider well above average . 50% is still above average, with 35-40% being what I would consider a national average. Some folks claim geographical location is a contributing factor.

A can of worms type conversation

^^^^
And here is a realistic post about percentages of coon seen and not seen in competition hunts. I wonder if anybody has really ever kept a tally on that? I can only take a realistic guess of my best recollection and say in a little over 30 years of comp. hunting, some years just a few hunts, others quite a few, that less than 50 percent of the trees I have shined resulted in plus points. That's every color and breed of dog including mine. The majority of the not plus trees were either den trees or thick leafy trees that you just couldn't see nearly all of, so how does one truly calculate a dogs accuracy? I can take you to woods back off the beaten path where we would probably see a pretty good percentage of coon on a good night and I can take you to woods that get hunted to death and regardless of what dog anybody is packing, your not going to see a coon in very many of the trees-the coon are just too wise, they'd be dead if they weren't! So how can anybody truly tell how accurate their dog is?
and yes this subject has been beaten to death on here and needs to be laid to rest because no one agrees on anybody elses opinion.

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Posted by cain99 on 10-14-2016 01:39 PM:

If mine does not tree coons & have them a HIGH percentage of time & by high percentage of time as in about 8 coon out of 10 trees..
I won't bother to hunt them nor will they have a spot in my pen very long, Let alone waste a entry fee to put them in a cast to embarrass myself.. If I pack something to a hunt, It will be something that has coons when it trees & will do it's own thing very consistently. With what I have hunted with these past couple years, From GrNtCh's in UKC or Dogs in PKC that have from 5-25k$$$ won lifetime, & after I hunt with them I think to myself "How did they ever win a cast?"
If you can't tree coons w/ a dog and do it consistently year round, why would you pack it to a hunt and believe you'll get lucky enough to win a cast with it? Just does not make sense to me. JMO..

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Posted by johnny reb on 10-14-2016 02:12 PM:

I'd love to see a dog that is 75-80%. I've seen dogs that are 80-90% for a week or 2. I've never seen one that would keep that average for a year. If a person would actually keep up with trees for a year and be brutally honest I honestly don't believe you would ever see 80%. I would say the majority would be well below 50% and you may have a few that could keep 60 maybe 70%.

Posted by Vic Stoll on 10-14-2016 05:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by johnny reb
I'd love to see a dog that is 75-80%. I've seen dogs that are 80-90% for a week or 2. I've never seen one that would keep that average for a year. If a person would actually keep up with trees for a year and be brutally honest I honestly don't believe you would ever see 80%. I would say the majority would be well below 50% and you may have a few that could keep 60 maybe 70%.

You hit the nail on the head, "actually keep track for a year". Over a decade ago, I did keep track for a year. Let's just say at the end of that year the word "SHOCKED" was an understatement

I'll stick with just saying a dog is pretty good about having a coon when it trees.

As Mike (Surveyor) eluded to, you can pretty much throw these percentages out the window. Way too many variables, with the biggest variable being the HUMAN FACTOR.

To add in a wrinkle for the folks who like to count dens as a coon seen, what is an acceptable annual percentage of den trees?

Food for thought: Dog A makes 100 trees, 65 coon seen, 15 den trees, 20 trees either leafy or slick.

Dog B makes 100 trees, 50 coon seen, 30 den trees, 20 trees either leafy or slick.

For the folks with the den tree equals a coon seen mindset, Dogs A & B have equal (80%) accuracy. Now, you tell me, which dog is really more accurate & what is the determining factor?

Posted by BornAganBeagler on 10-14-2016 05:36 PM:

I personally consider den trees as slick most of the time. I often feel that my dogs fall treed on the scent left by the coon as it was leaving. I know theres times that theres a good chance the meat is there but not as often as i would like. For several years i used dens as an excuse but my opinion has changed.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-14-2016 05:55 PM:

Re: Your Dog and Slick Trees?

At risk of plagiarizing, I would completely agree with your numbers...

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
80% will win most of your cast and you have a dog that you can be competitive with in most cast.
70% will leave you disappointed a lot of nights. Dog done fair but just didn't win.
60% you think you have a coonhound and can't figure out why you can't win more.
50% if your hauling this dog around your wasting money and time.

With that said, isn't it amazing that % accuracy alone, is what can predict the outcome of a hunt!?!

I started competition hunting back in the 80's, and back then a "good dog" was determined by how quickly he could get struck and then treed, before the others joined him. In fact that's why we have the scoring system we have in all these registries. But apparently, somewhere along the line breeders knowingly or unknowingly decided to compete on speed, was too much trouble! It's much easier to just go get your own, where the population supports it. Joe Newlin once told me, "Relax Dave, you don't need to be the first one to tree your dog, because with what you're packing, you'll always have first tree!"

So when you're going to four split trees every drop, the winning dog is really determined by the more accurate dog. Maybe we should change how we score them??? LOL!

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Posted by deadeye ruck on 10-14-2016 08:28 PM:

Re: Your Dog and Slick Trees?

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
For the guys the coon hunt in all registries. If your serious about it, what is an acceptable percentage for your Competition Dog.
I am not talking about what you can win with. Some nights you can win with 5 circle trees. I am talking about what the serious guys feel they need from their dog to be at the upper level of any competition hunt.

I wil start it off.
80% will win most of your cast and you have a dog that you can be competitive with in most cast.
70% will leave you disappointed a lot of nights. Dog done fair but just didn't win.
60% you think you have a coonhound and can't figure out why you can't win more.
50% if your hauling this dog around your wasting money and time.

Maybe I'm in the minority. I $kc hunt quite a bit. I haven't won anything big but have won quite a few casts. I live in the mountains of Virginia. Plenty of big hardwoods but also some thick rough spots. If you can actually see up the tree, I think we find him 80% of the time that he's there (4 out of 5 trees). If you hunt with guys who are seasoned competition hunters they are usually pretty handy about finding one. Of course there is going to be times when they simply won't look for no reason short of a bomb going off. I find they are quick to look when the leaves are full on though and have found that usually I can't get them to look in the winter (but may be able to pick out another part of the coon). There is an art to working over a tree. Have you ever told your buddy, there he is, plain as day and they honestly can't see it even when they are standing in your tracks?

With that being said, a dog will miss occasionally. If you factor in finding him with the dog's ability, I think you are wasting your time with anything less than 70% if you are looking to be consistently competitive. I hear alot of people, mainly those who do not participate in the hunts, say all the time that they disagree with them because a dog can win with circle or minus. I sure wish I could draw some of those hunters packing those tree grabbing slick treers because around here, the hunters are packing coon treers and you're going to get beat like a drum unless yours is out treeing those coons too.

The ones that are the waste of time are the ones that tree just enough coons to make you think they will make something once you "get them straightened out."

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Posted by wbond on 10-14-2016 09:52 PM:

Re: Your Dog and Slick Trees?

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
For the guys the coon hunt in all registries. If your serious about it, what is an acceptable percentage for your Competition Dog.
I am not talking about what you can win with. Some nights you can win with 5 circle trees. I am talking about what the serious guys feel they need from their dog to be at the upper level of any competition hunt.

I wil start it off.
80% will win most of your cast and you have a dog that you can be competitive with in most cast.
70% will leave you disappointed a lot of nights. Dog done fair but just didn't win.
60% you think you have a coonhound and can't figure out why you can't win more.
50% if your hauling this dog around your wasting money and time.

If I am looking at that many tree's and not seeing a coon I am not hunting it Good Grief and that's what yall call a coon dog 50 to 80 percent circle I would looking for a dog

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Posted by N Williams on 10-15-2016 01:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Well Started
Not to get this off on another trail, but are you saying this is a result of competition hunting? And if so what's the main cause, other dogs? What?

I just pleasure hunt and realize dogs go thru stages where they're just clicking, and other times not so much, maybe not hunting like they've been, ect. But if I have a 3 yr old going backwards on accuracy that dog better be not feeling good, because otherwise it's not going to like the grouchy, irritable, miserable cuss I would soon turn into.

I'll tell you and anyone else. The good ones that hit peeks of almost being unbeatable have times when the wheels fall off. Ours being influenced by other dogs to making mistakes or backing up slicks has never been a problem because she is the closest thing I've ever saw to a dead loner. We have went through spurts where for several months in cast situations she stayed above 85% but she has times and nights she just looks like a ordinary dog of just acts plum stupid. We cannot figure out why the next 50 trees she's scored on she might be plused up 45 times or might be plused up 25 times. Just dog I recon. I've seen her do it both. I will guarantee one thing. When she's above 80 we are getting our picture taken atleast at every hunt we put her in. When she's 50 and below were usually going home with our head down. Unlike most people we go to the hunts and found the best a large lump some of $$$$ would buy and admit her shortcomings.

Posted by high ridge on 10-15-2016 02:39 AM:

When a dog trees I have a 1/3 chance of seeing a coon. I would love to find a dog that from Jan1-Dec 31 that is 80% at showing me eyeballs in all conditions. EYEBALLS.

I would honestly give $30,000 dollars for a dog that showed me 8 out of ten coons year around.

I would never be beat.

If you have that dog I would love to try him or her. Breed does not matter. Nothing over 7.

I think 60% is the best we can get. But,I agree,I am not as intelligent as most and I know several have that 80%. I just have never seen it. And,I have hunted with a few pretty good ones.

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Posted by N Williams on 10-15-2016 03:18 AM:

A 60% dog in cast situations being haled to strange places and put under pressure is accurate. Real accurate if they can maintain that over a long period. If there 60 they probably have spurts where there above 80 but have funks that really drop that percentage. I will say we have been to 3 truck hunts and dot has been 10 for 11 only winning one cast. The only tree not plused was a den.

Posted by Darrell Eads on 10-15-2016 03:24 AM:

I need to abstain from this post , because I don't want to be called a liar ,, Aww to heck with it just call me a Liar

August 4th I started back hunting , no competition hunts and only been cut once with another dog , I have kept count 104 trees, 5 hotel motel trees (dens) 1 weird circle slick tree ,, Im not sure what it even was he didn't even tree right stood off the tree and bawled (strange)acting deal from beginning to the end ,, But hes had 98 coon , never have I before owned a dog like him ,

his Mom wasn't that way his dad Isnt that way , his Grandmother wasn't that way , I don't know where and why or how come hes so deadly , but he loves to have a coon ,

I guess Im bragging

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Posted by high ridge on 10-15-2016 03:38 AM:

94%. BP is rocking. You are going to be tough to handle in Salem.

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 10-15-2016 04:27 AM:

Mr. Eads, I mean No disrespect at all, but I have been around a lot of descriptions of the outcomes of coon hunts over the years. For my clarification, are you saying 98 of those individual trees had ONE coon in them OR are you saying you saw a total of 98 coons out of those, 104 trees. It's your story, and I don't have any inclination to start hunting black & Tans so I'm just looking to be sure I fully understand the outcome of your hunt records.

In my area of Ohio, it would be very difficult to find a single coon in 98 of 104 trees as there would be a few doubles and a few triples and some trees with 4,5,or 6 coons in the tree in the month of August, as the kits are still together down here during this time. I would be really surprised to make 98 individual trees and see only a single coon in each tree.

Just wondering??

Posted by novicane65 on 10-15-2016 11:32 AM:

So here's a question.

Why does it seem every dog has good times of the year they do great and other times they can't buy a tree with a Coon? One dog I used to own looked great in winter but come summer he had a hard time (3 yr old male). Now the older female I have now is pretty balanced all year. But she has bad hunts too just not months at a time. And she's 8. Been hunted down south, upper Midwest, south Midwest, and now the Northeast. Now I'm not trying to say she's a great dog. But she is a good one. She isn't a pretty hound.

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