UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- I think we are confused on this Cold Nose Stuff! (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928464093)

I think we are confused on this Cold Nose Stuff!

I will say two things about all this Cold Nose stuff I am reading on here.
1. I think we are confused about a cold nose and don't really know what it is.
2. Why does anyone need a cold nose dog to coon hunt? Good Track Dog yes but why the Cold Nose?

Lets talk #1 To you, what is a cold nose hound. How do you determine that? I am sure some of the big game hunters that read this post can chime in and YES you guys need a STRIKE DOG that can take a track and get it to a point your other dogs can chime in and help put the bear or cat up a tree.
You can see and measure that difference in your hounds and you know which one to take out of the box when you see a track. Not always is that good strike dog the better dog on the other end of the track. Sometimes they are but sometimes they are not.
Here is where the confusion comes in. We think that how the dog barks determine if the track is hot or cold. I have seen good TRACK DOGS run a cold track like they were looking at the game. Barking way more than most would want a dog to bark on a cold track, but none the less driving it. Also at the same time fooling you that it was a better track than it was.
We tend to measure the dogs nose by how much it barks. One that is stuck a swamp going back and forth gets credit for being a cold nose dog. That was before the Garmins. Now they get credit for just what they are. More nose than BRAINS and not a very good track dog. Now a few things happen off this kind of track. Some handlers see what is happening and moves the dog out of there. Some handlers sit and listen and marvel at their brainless cold nose dog. The worse one is the dog finally gets frustrated and grabs a tree. That is the boat many of us are in even if the track sounds good and is being moved. If your seeing a lot of blank or circle trees it is because your dog can't track. It doesn't need a colder nose. It needs more brains.
2. Now, why does anyone want a COLD NOSED coonhound. When you drive up to that corn field or pumpkin patch don't you expect the coon has just fed in there if not still there. When your go to the farm and turn out by the gain silo, don't you think the coon is close by. If not then why did you go there. Most Coon Hunters do not drive roads looking for tracks to cut their dogs on. The ones that might will get disappointed real quick unless there is water and ditch along side the road.
The guys that use to hunt when there was money in the furs had dogs that would pile the coon up. How many of those dogs actually looked like hounds or were full blooded hounds.
If you were the hound hunter you would run into guys that had dogs that looked like they should be watching TV together and not coon hunting together. But none the less they had a mess of coon caught. While you were wishing for a colder nosed hound. Cas Walker had two pages of mixed dogs for sale in the Full Cry every month. He said they all treed coon.
I think in coon hunting we do it all backwards. We get a pup and we try to train it to hunt. We try and train it to trail. We try and train it to locate. We try to train it to have a colder nose. Then after three years of that, we try to train it to have a coon up the tree and leave the possums alone. Way more training than necessary. Way more time spent than necessary with generally poor results. I say the secret to success is two things. Reverse Engineer the coon hound. Most saw the video of JiM's pup at 5 months old treeing a real live coon. Thats the kind of tools, brains, ability you want your pup to have. They haven't been honed yet but they are there. You start backwards from there. Work with the pup on the track if needed, work with the pup on trash if needed, work on the hunting ability if needed. You already know it can tree a coon. Working backwards you find not as much is needed.
The second thing which is really the key. Get the pup from good stock of dogs. Yea we all think we do this. We don't. If you elevate your choice when it comes to getting a pup you will elevate your end results. The sad thing is even the percentages from good stock isn't what it should be when it comes to Coon Hounds. That is the game we play and you just have to move on. But moving on is easier when you haven't place a bunch of hurdles in your path.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

lol

totally agree!!

__________________
C.JONES

If treeing coons is your only objective, then I agree with what you have said. If the manner your dog trees coons is your objective, then I have a different view. I personally would much rather hear my dog work an old acorn feed track across three ridges and tree a coon that hasn't been down in hours, than tree five pop up coons. The way a dog works an old bad track is way more important to ME than numbers. I think this kind of dog has to have a good nose and more important the brains to use it. I also think that this type of hound is fading fast, as most people tend to base a dogs ability as a coon hound solely on the number of coons treed and not in the manner treed.

Well I might as well throw a kink in things ( I am good at it ) how in the heck do you classify the crapping ones ( there's a lot of them nowadays) that leave your feet rattling their head every drop and always treed 800 yrds or better in the opposite dirrection of the other dogs usually 350 plus in a two hour hunt is their max. Because you are walking your guts out trying to score all of them because they ain't putting their nose on the ground for 400 yrds or better bad thing about it that's a desired trait now days unless..................... You bring them down here for a couple weeks we will break the from hunting one like that wait till the world hunt this year in Georgia lol!!

Outstanding Coondogs

I agree with Bruce on this thread and the one on "brains" as well.
I started looking for that superior stock of dogs in 1972 and would go hunt with the highly advertised studs or their offspring for several years. Wornout a 1969 El Camino looking. I'd come back from a trip just in time to go to work on Monday.
* There has never been many outstanding dogs!
* Most the highly advertised dogs are just nice dogs.
* If you think that intelligences is not a key ingredient then you've probably never seen an outstanding dog.
Nothing is more disappointing to me to than to have a 6 month old pup show outstanding ability at treeing a coon and not be any better at 2 years old because it didn't have the brains to advance beyond its hereditary natural ability.
* Outstanding dogs take all tracks as they come to them, run to catch on cold tracks, tree coon without running a track, and operate more like a machine than an animal. When they open it is not a matter of if they will tree the coon, but only a matter of where.
* Outstanding hounds with brains and the desire to please their owners are a thing of beauty and are rare.

I'm writing this for our young hunters as they are the future and the old hunters are probably so set in their ways that they would not be willing change their thinking.

Outstanding dogs get beat in the competition hunts by dogs of mediocre ability that are loners. The loner trees an easy coon while the real coon dog is running to catch the first coon track they came to. It is much easier to win with independent dogs of lesser ability than it is to breed and win with superior ability. Most breeders have chosen the easy route of breeding lesser performance that are loner and that will not compete with dogs that they cant beat "one on one".
This is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

A dog is just hard to explain on the point of noise,brains,hunt ,drive,depth,gamey,handle,will to please, You may think you have all of it although you may just have parts of it and do not know it because the dog maybe real strong on some and weaker on others and it is hard to tell a lot of times, Some of the same dogs i use to Coon Hunt i also use to Bear Hunt and all of them are from the same line and i have a female here you can put her on a cold Bear track and she will pick it up although she maybe close to out of hearing range before you hear her open the first time and she is no where close to silent and i don't think she is to cold nosed, I have seen this same dog take a Bear track and get it up and going that other so called cold nosed strike dogs would wonder through the woods bawling for two hours and never get a 1/2 mile and give it up, I think a good dog is combination of all the things i listed and if they have equal parts or can compensate for the weaker points because they excel in the others you will have a complete dog, The bad part is they are a lot of dogs that don't break even on any of it and that is where you find a problem .

Re: Outstanding Coondogs

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kler Kry
I agree with Bruce on this thread and the one on "brains" as well.
I started looking for that superior stock of dogs in 1972 and would go hunt with the highly advertised studs or their offspring for several years. Wornout a 1969 El Camino looking. I'd come back from a trip just in time to go to work on Monday.
* There has never been many outstanding dogs!
* Most the highly advertised dogs are just nice dogs.
* If you think that intelligences is not a key ingredient then you've probably never seen an outstanding dog.
Nothing is more disappointing to me to than to have a 6 month old pup show outstanding ability at treeing a coon and not be any better at 2 years old because it didn't have the brains to advance beyond its hereditary natural ability.
* Outstanding dogs take all tracks as they come to them, run to catch on cold tracks, tree coon without running a track, and operate more like a machine than an animal. When they open it is not a matter of if they will tree the coon, but only a matter of where.
* Outstanding hounds with brains and the desire to please their owners are a thing of beauty and are rare.

I'm writing this for our young hunters as they are the future and the old hunters are probably so set in their ways that they would not be willing change their thinking.



Outstanding dogs get beat in the competition hunts by dogs of mediocre ability that are loners. The loner trees an easy coon while the real coon dog is running to catch the first coon track they came to. It is much easier to win with independent dogs of lesser ability than it is to breed and win with superior ability. Most breeders have chosen the easy route of breeding lesser performance that are loner and that will not compete with dogs that they cant beat "one on one".
This is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

---

Re: Re: Outstanding Coondogs

quote:

---

Originally posted by N Williams
Well me ask you a question sir. I keep hearing this subject of the loner and the hot coon. I have a young English that just turned 2 years old off awesome and dot. Now we kept up with it and put her in 17 hunts in a 2 month period. She won 14 of those cast and took no second trees. She was split every drop and was covered 2 times. Now she treed 14 coons that were treed on those 17 cast. No other hound treed a coon.lol. Yes in 17 strait cast. Some she was split 20 yards sometimes she split over a mile. I've just come to realize that if I keep listening to people on this message board and do what they tell me I need to do I will stop winning. Heck all a dog had to do was tree a coon every cast and not draw minus and they would have won 17 strait cast. Last 2 winters from mid November - mid feb 125+ would have won 15 out 18 cast we were on. So I just get sick of hearing that speed is what you need to win. No disrespect to you or anyone else I've just learned that cast and coon hunting is different in the woods than on the Internet.

---

__________________
T.Osborne..Homemade Kennels!
Home Of.
GrNtCh Hardwood Bean 11/28/03 - 4/14/14.
GrNtCh Big Money
GrNtCh North Mt Mort
GrChGrNtCh T&R’s Homemade Trouble

GrNtChGrCh Homemade Josie.
Homemade Tank.
GrNtCh Hardwood Bean (SEMEN)
GrNtCh Abbotts Bawling Rebel (SEMEN)
GrNtChGrCh Tj's Stylish Lipper (SEMEN)
GrNtCh Nite Life Pay Dirt (SEMEN)
GrNtCh PKC Ch Poison Smoke (SEMEN)


HomeMade Kennels
Newton N.C
2010 SETWA BREEDER OF THE YEAR!!
(828) 302-5480

Re: Re: Outstanding Coondogs

quote:

---

Originally posted by N Williams
Well me ask you a question sir. I keep hearing this subject of the loner and the hot coon. I have a young English that just turned 2 years old off awesome and dot. Now we kept up with it and put her in 17 hunts in a 2 month period. She won 14 of those cast and took no second trees. She was split every drop and was covered 2 times. Now she treed 14 coons that were treed on those 17 cast. No other hound treed a coon.lol. Yes in 17 strait cast. Some she was split 20 yards sometimes she split over a mile. I've just come to realize that if I keep listening to people on this message board and do what they tell me I need to do I will stop winning. Heck all a dog had to do was tree a coon every cast and not draw minus and they would have won 17 strait cast. Last 2 winters from mid November - mid feb 125+ would have won 15 out 18 cast we were on. So I just get sick of hearing that speed is what you need to win. No disrespect to you or anyone else I've just learned that cast and coon hunting is different in the woods than on the Internet.

---

__________________
Walk softly and carry a big stick.

Ole Cas Walker sure had a lot of good dogs.

__________________
Jim Garrison-The Plott Promoter
Home of Hall of fame Grand Nite Ch.
Garrisons Brindle Ranger.
Gr. Nt. Ch. Garrisons Brindle Hobo
Gr. Nt. Ch. Garrisons Brindle Luke
Gr. Nt. Ch. Garrisons Brindle Honey
Nite Ch. Garrisons Brindle Lead Nite Ch. Garrisons Brindle Belle
Nite Champion Garrisons Brindle Buckshot HTX
At Stud Grand Nite Ch. Garrisons Brindle Trax

Re: Re: Re: Outstanding Coondogs

quote:

---

Originally posted by michael.magorian
I don't think there is a question anywhere in that mess. Congrats on your cast wins in the hunts, but nowhere in your two month list of accolades do you disprove or prove anything. However, if I went coon hunting 17 nights, and only saw 14 coon, I would not be impressed with that animal. That dog would be on a one way trip if things didn't change pretty soon.

Back to the brains. As long as a dog is smart, it will learn to be mediocre at the very least. Nearly every true "rockstar" dog is or was smart. I personally believe a "cold nose" dog is really just a smart dog that has learned to line out old, tougher tracks. Or the owner is just making up excuses for why their dog is running around in middle of nowhere for no reason.

---

Re: Re: Outstanding Coondogs

quote:

---

Originally posted by N Williams
Well me ask you a question sir. I keep hearing this subject of the loner and the hot coon. I have a young English that just turned 2 years old off awesome and dot. Now we kept up with it and put her in 17 hunts in a 2 month period. She won 14 of those cast and took no second trees. She was split every drop and was covered 2 times. Now she treed 14 coons that were treed on those 17 cast. No other hound treed a coon.lol. Yes in 17 strait cast. Some she was split 20 yards sometimes she split over a mile. I've just come to realize that if I keep listening to people on this message board and do what they tell me I need to do I will stop winning. Heck all a dog had to do was tree a coon every cast and not draw minus and they would have won 17 strait cast. Last 2 winters from mid November - mid feb 125+ would have won 15 out 18 cast we were on. So I just get sick of hearing that speed is what you need to win. No disrespect to you or anyone else I've just learned that cast and coon hunting is different in the woods than on the Internet.

---

__________________
C.JONES

I've hunted in ohio. I can tree coons with a 2 cell flashlight and a fiest in most of the places I've been.

quote:

---

Originally posted by N Williams
I've hunted in ohio. I can tree coons with a 2 cell flashlight and a fiest in most of the places I've been.

---

__________________
C.JONES

lol

Yadkintar could spot coon here!!

__________________
C.JONES

Awesome post Bruce.Chew,While I will agree 14 coons in 17 nights doesn't sound too good.The truth is if that dog can do that in a cast and stay out of trouble.Its a winner.When a dog packs up with idiots Its got a high chance of looking like idiot.I want a naturally independent coontreer but that's rare in pups nowadays.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jackson87
Awesome post Bruce.Chew,While I will agree 14 coons in 17 nights doesn't sound too good.The truth is if that dog can do that in a cast and stay out of trouble.Its a winner.When a dog packs up with idiots Its got a high chance of looking like idiot.I want a naturally independent coontreer but that's rare in pups nowadays.

---

__________________
C.JONES

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jackson87
Awesome post Bruce.Chew,While I will agree 14 coons in 17 nights doesn't sound too good.The truth is if that dog can do that in a cast and stay out of trouble.Its a winner.When a dog packs up with idiots Its got a high chance of looking like idiot.I want a naturally independent coontreer but that's rare in pups nowadays.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CHEWBACH
oohell there is a lot dogs tree one coon a nite!! but to win with less!! consticency !!!don't say much for caliber of dogs out there!!lol

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ssgied
If treeing coons is your only objective, then I agree with what you have said. If the manner your dog trees coons is your objective, then I have a different view. I personally would much rather hear my dog work an old acorn feed track across three ridges and tree a coon that hasn't been down in hours, than tree five pop up coons. The way a dog works an old bad track is way more important to ME than numbers. I think this kind of dog has to have a good nose and more important the brains to use it. I also think that this type of hound is fading fast, as most people tend to base a dogs ability as a coon hound solely on the number of coons treed and not in the manner treed.

---

WOW, This had started off good and has turned into a pick on Mr Williams Thread, They are a lot of hounds out there it would be a hard job for them to tree 10 Coon in 17 nights in thick coon after you was tired of pulling them off around 20 slick trees and and a dozen slick tails, 14 treed coon in 17 nights in a hunt is not all that bad i have seen worse numbers in some of the big hunts .

I'm also from North Alabama and iv hunted over 30yrs and I can tell u that a dog that trees 14 here out of 17 drops is a very good dog most of my hunting is cutover timber or tornado ripped and most dogs won't even bust thru to ever strike a coon here and these coons don't just pop up a tree they run a while and most dogs pull up slick and want u to come get them I'm not taking sides or arguing but I can promise u if a dog can tree them consistently here they r a tough dog

I like to pick on mr Williams but his numbers would be a good dog here to lot of times you can't get were you can look up the tree to see if the coons even there.

Mr. Bruce, you said "I have seen good TRACK DOGS run a cold track like they were looking at the game. Barking way more than most would want a dog to bark on a cold track, but none the less driving it. Also at the same time fooling you that it was a better track than it was."

I'm just curious as to how you knew it was a cold track if they were driving it like that.

lol

yep!! yadkintar some set there standards high and some not so!!lol

__________________
C.JONES