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-- Grand Nite Ch's in a Nite Ch cast ??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928451726)

Grand Nite Ch's in a Nite Ch cast ???

Went to a UKC hunt tonight, and entered a Nite Ch female. Drew out with two other dogs, a male who finished to GrandNiteCh last weekend in a hunt, and a female who got her last Nite Ch win last night. The handler of the male dog said he called for a points check before breeding, and there was some confusion from UKC on how many wins he had, and that they would get back to him. I know, and he knows, the dog has all his wins. The owner of the female told me last night after the hunt, that was her 5th win, and she was now a grand. When asked why he was entering Nite Ch tonight he said "I don't have the paperwork in my hands yet" and then, "just stacking the deck."

First drop of the night, all dogs struck and treed. I was judging. We start walking in. 75 yds from the tree, I heard the other female stop barking, and then a squeal from my female, a little scuffle, then they went right back to treeing. I hurried on in to the tree and put my light on the dogs, when I was 15 yards from the tree, I watched the other female come off the wood, and fly in to my female, knocked her to the ground and went to chewing on her. Went in and broke them up, got them all on a leash. I said "she's scratched". Handler of other female, who was at least 30 yards behind me when this happened says " no, they're both scratched". I told him I had seen his dog in action as the aggressor. So we put it to a vote. The handler of the male dog said all he saw was both dogs on the ground, and voted to scratch both. His dog had met us 40 yds off the tree and managed to stay out of it. I scored his tree, filled out the scorecard and signed it, had the other handler sign, and then handed the card to the guide to finish as a Non-Hunting Judge.

So my dog is going to be written up for fighting, because she was jumped by a bitch that had no business being in the same woods with her tonight. What is the UKC's position on Grands entering in Nite CH class? It says on page 66 in the rule book " A Nite Ch or Grand Nite Ch cannot hunt in open competition. They must hunt in own class, not lower." Any way to enforce this? Or can people just enter a dog in whatever class they feel like entering? Buncha BS is what it was.

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Josh Daniels

Pretty sure fighting is not up for a vote. This is judge decision if he seen who the aggressor was.

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Originally posted by howie
Pretty sure fighting is not up for a vote. This is judge decision if he seen who the aggressor was.

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__________________
Kevin Brown
Convoy,Ohio

Browns Wild Irish Rose(Tequila Sunrise x Stylish Abagal)
Browns Stylish Buddy(Stylish Bushwacker x Browns Wild Irish Rose) pup
Browns Stylish Sissy(Stylish Bushwacker x Browns Wild Irish Rose) pup

Everything and anything can be up for a vote when a hunting judge is used.
Who would hunt in a hunt where a judge with a dog in the hunt had the only say? I sure wouldn't. Everything and anything can be a vote with a hunting judge.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Let me rephrase that. Yes, it is the judges call but that call can be overturned by a cast vote.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

I understand what your saying Jim. I guess what I'm saying is if I am the master hound,I choose my judges. Judge should always be first to walk into the tree. Someone bring a ? Back like that your always gonna go with your judges decision. That's the reason we as master hound hand pick our judges.

Moh will go with the judge usually on a tie vote in case of a judgment call otherwise he gonna rule with the majority.

You got out voted.

__________________
Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

quote:

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Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
Moh will go with the judge usually on a tie vote in case of a judgment call otherwise he gonna rule with the majority.

You got out voted.

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Josh Daniels

Entries are totally dependent upon what class is stated on the entry slip. It is not determined by the Easy Entry card, for good reasons. So yes, you can enter a GrNtCh in the NtCh hunts just as you can enter a Reg dog in the NtCh hunt. And it would be found out when the hunt report is proceeded by UKC and the dog would be disqualified at that point. Which is why almost no one ever intentionally hunts the wrong class, it would be a total waste of time, effort and entry fee.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

"Tree sweepers" get wrote in any class. If I knew I had one and knew it was finished I'd be glad not to have to enter it at all. They're dogs..... Sometimes sh!t happens.

__________________
Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Entries are totally dependent upon what class is stated on the entry slip. It is not determined by the Easy Entry card, for good reasons. So yes, you can enter a GrNtCh in the NtCh hunts just as you can enter a Reg dog in the NtCh hunt. And it would be found out when the hunt report is proceeded by UKC and the dog would be disqualified at that point. Which is why almost no one ever intentionally hunts the wrong class, it would be a total waste of time, effort and entry fee.

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Josh Daniels

quote:

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Originally posted by shorecooner
Right. So if you know your dog is a Grand Nite Ch, and you check the Champion box on the entry slip, you are now falsifying event related documents. Category 1 Misconduct. See page 115 in the rule book.

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__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Category 1 Misconduct? Don't ask me, I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a Motel 6 last night. But I'm purty sure there is no misconduct if no misconduct complaint is filed.

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__________________
Josh Daniels

As far as entering the wrong class goes I really don't imagine your going to be able to do much about that because as Jim stated that's just something that will get caught be UKC when they get the hunt report BUT I really feel for you when it comes to your dog getting scratched over a rough dog in the cast. That's a problem I really don't know what to do about but it sucks. I had in incident just a couple weeks ago where we had an "obviously" rough dog in the cast and the judge and the culprit both wound up scratched on the second tree. It left me to finish the last hour by myself which sure was good for me but it just wasn't right, the judges dog was nowhere near rough but there "clearly" was a fight between those two and we didn't see it so they both got scratched.

Let me make sure I got this right...you scratched a dog as the aggressor in a fight. The rest of the cast called it to a vote and voted down the call you made. Did you put a question mark on the card and take it to the MOH????
The judge is supposed to be first to the tree, and it sounds like you were. You saw the aggressor in action and scratched it. It was voted down, but if you questioned it and took it to the MOH the guys that voted it down would have to explain why that didn't happen when they didn't see it. This is of course if you have a MOH that is doing his job. I am not saying it still couldn't go that way, just that it sounds like you didn't take this as far as you could have.
The other handlers could have seen it all from 30 yards away, but did they say that to the MOH??? If three other handlers are saying they saw it all and are in direct dispute of your story then the MOH might have to go along with scratching both dogs. If they admit to not having seen anything but the fight and just don't like your call as the judge then he might rule in your favor.
My question is if a dog gets entered in a lower class and wins and then UKC realizes it does the next score get the win??? Or no because the cast winner was wrong to begin with for even being there????

This happens because you never know if they have all five or not LOL.

My dog had to get 6 wins because one club didn't fill out a hunt report at all one night. I had a friend hunting the dog for me and he moved during that time so that was the only win slip I didn't have. I know he won that hunt, many people knew but I didn't have the win slip so I had to hunt him in another NtCh cast and get another win to make GrNt.

So no it's not misconduct because he has no way of knowing if UKC has all the wins on the dog or if he miscounted until they send him the degree.

Heck I NEVER thought losing a win would happen to me in a million years. I am one of those that always keep my win slips, put them in my billfold. But in this instance life happened and it was the perfect storm and I lost one.

It can happen.

As for the scratch, it was your call. After they overturned it you could put a question on it and take it back to the MOH. That is what I would have done personally.

But look at it this way, if your dog is not ill then you have nothing to worry about and the ill dog did get one scratch on its record.

__________________
Let's go huntin

quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
Let me make sure I got this right...you scratched a dog as the aggressor in a fight. The rest of the cast called it to a vote and voted down the call you made. Did you put a question mark on the card and take it to the MOH????
The judge is supposed to be first to the tree, and it sounds like you were. You saw the aggressor in action and scratched it. It was voted down, but if you questioned it and took it to the MOH the guys that voted it down would have to explain why that didn't happen when they didn't see it. This is of course if you have a MOH that is doing his job. I am not saying it still couldn't go that way, just that it sounds like you didn't take this as far as you could have.
The other handlers could have seen it all from 30 yards away, but did they say that to the MOH??? If three other handlers are saying they saw it all and are in direct dispute of your story then the MOH might have to go along with scratching both dogs. If they admit to not having seen anything but the fight and just don't like your call as the judge then he might rule in your favor.
My question is if a dog gets entered in a lower class and wins and then UKC realizes it does the next score get the win??? Or no because the cast winner was wrong to begin with for even being there????

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__________________
Josh Daniels

quote:

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Originally posted by shorecooner
I should have added that the event was held by HD format. I don't believe a panel can overturn a cast vote if it involves dogs being scratched for fighting.

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__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
I'm afraid you are wrong about that. A HD panel can do anything a MOH can do. A HD panel can definately overturn any cast vote.

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Josh Daniels

Sounds like you didn't follow the rules either, only the hunt director or master of hounds can appoint a non-hunting. Even as the judge you don't have that authority.

quote:

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Originally posted by jeffrey robinso
Sounds like you didn't follow the rules either, only the hunt director or master of hounds can appoint a non-hunting. Even as the judge you don't have that authority.

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__________________
Josh Daniels

Shorecooner I had a very similar situation happen to me about 6-7 years ago. I too was judging, I too was the first to the tree, with the handler of the aggressive dog right beside me. The handler of the 3rd dog (3 dog cast) was about 20 yards back. as we arrived, the other handlers dog had position on the upper side of the tree. My female was treeing on the bottom side as it was pretty hot on that top side, however just as we arrived my female made one last attempt to tree on the upper side of the tree. This other female came around on my side and drove my female right off the side of the tree right into my lap. I pulled them apart and handed the other female to its handler. I scratched this female as I clearly saw the initiator of contact. Of course the handler of the other female denied his female started it. Now the handler of the 3rd dog, who was loosing seen this great opportunity to win this cast and hunt the remainder of the night by himself. They questioned my call of scratching the instigator. We took it back to the hunt director, who was my good friend, and still is to this day. My good friend went with the ruling that the majority only saw two dogs fighting and scratched my dog along with this female that started it, and the other guy got his 1st place win by eliminating us both.

Now 6 years later, and hunting in a few winter classics, Autumn Oaks, Breed Days of several different breeds and such as well as the many RQE's I have entered since then and the zones as well. This same female has NEVER been wrote up or even accused of being rough in any other hunt in her life. So if you are hunting a real deal coon hound, take it on the chin, (even though it stings to do so) as she will over come those small adversities.

And needless to say this ole gal has won her cast in all of these events listed above. I'm pretty proud of her even if she did get wrote up once!!!

Good Luck!!!!

__________________
Phone-740-767-2572
Dave Mayles
11210 Davis Road
Glouster, Ohio 45732
Home To:
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Hang'em High Holly
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Rockets Top Gun.
Gr.Nt.Ch.Hooper Ridge Rocket
Gr.Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Dolly
Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Queen
Nt.Ch Raw Dawg Rowdy
PR Tree Banging Buddy
HOOPER RIDGE ENGLISH-POUND FOR POUND THEY ARE ONE TOUGH HOUND!!!!

I hear you Dave, and maybe I should have gone back with a question, but I knew it would be a waste of time, and it was best for all involved that I got out of there before things heated up. I'm not too concerned with the scratch, I know and every one that's ever hunted with her knows she is not an aggressor. And that's including the other two handlers that were in the woods last night. We all know what happened at that tree.

The part I'm having a hard time with is that he intentionally entered a GrNiteCh in the NiteCH class, to provide a majority vote for another handler. Even told me he was "stacking the deck". IMO, if that's allowable, there is something seriously wrong with the system. So I'm going to fill out the appropriate paperwork and send it in. I'll let you know what the UKC decides to do.

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Josh Daniels

THE GUYS STATED HE HAD HIS FIFTH WIN THE WEEK BEFORE AND THE FEMALE THE NIGHT BEFORE. UKC AND OUR MAIL SYSTEM COULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN THE WIN SLIPS IN IN THAT TIME. BAD SPORTSMANSHIP AND JUDGEMENT ON OWNERS / HANDLERS THEY NEW.

YOU SHOULD HAVE SCRATCHED DOGS FOR FIGHTING THEN AD ? THEN DRIVE TO MASTER OF HOUNDS. AT LEAST YOU WOULD HAVE MADE YOUR POINT. SOUNDS AS IF ONE OF THEM COULD HAVE BEEN RUNNING INTERFERENCE FOR ANOTHER. IT HAPPENS.

BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME.

__________________
Home of;

Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch. Gr.WCh. Pr. McMillans Blue Crystal
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all are gone now but will NEVER BE FORGOTTEN


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Re: Grand Nite Ch's in a Nite Ch cast ???

quote:

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Originally posted by shorecooner
Went to a UKC hunt tonight, and entered a Nite Ch female. Drew out with two other dogs, a male who finished to GrandNiteCh last weekend in a hunt, and a female who got her last Nite Ch win last night. The handler of the male dog said he called for a points check before breeding, and there was some confusion from UKC on how many wins he had, and that they would get back to him. I know, and he knows, the dog has all his wins. The owner of the female told me last night after the hunt, that was her 5th win, and she was now a grand. When asked why he was entering Nite Ch tonight he said "I don't have the paperwork in my hands yet" and then, "just stacking the deck."

First drop of the night, all dogs struck and treed. I was judging. We start walking in. 75 yds from the tree, I heard the other female stop barking, and then a squeal from my female, a little scuffle, then they went right back to treeing. I hurried on in to the tree and put my light on the dogs, when I was 15 yards from the tree, I watched the other female come off the wood, and fly in to my female, knocked her to the ground and went to chewing on her. Went in and broke them up, got them all on a leash. I said "she's scratched". Handler of other female, who was at least 30 yards behind me when this happened says " no, they're both scratched". I told him I had seen his dog in action as the aggressor. So we put it to a vote. The handler of the male dog said all he saw was both dogs on the ground, and voted to scratch both. His dog had met us 40 yds off the tree and managed to stay out of it. I scored his tree, filled out the scorecard and signed it, had the other handler sign, and then handed the card to the guide to finish as a Non-Hunting Judge.

So my dog is going to be written up for fighting, because she was jumped by a bitch that had no business being in the same woods with her tonight. What is the UKC's position on Grands entering in Nite CH class? It says on page 66 in the rule book " A Nite Ch or Grand Nite Ch cannot hunt in open competition. They must hunt in own class, not lower." Any way to enforce this? Or can people just enter a dog in whatever class they feel like entering? Buncha BS is what it was.

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__________________
Billy Beckham
618-214-0065

PKC CH, GRNITECH Beckham's Hillbilly Bones