UKC Forums - Hunt with sire/dam before buying a pup???

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-- Hunt with sire/dam before buying a pup??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928434370)

Posted by Adam Wingler on 11-10-2015 02:45 PM:

Hunt with sire/dam before buying a pup???

We've heard this said or typed here on the forum 1000 times..."before you pick a pup or line to go with, you should go hunt with the stud and dam first."

That's hardly feasible on numerous levels. And it doesn't matter the breed. If I really believed that many breeders were open to showing me what they had I might actually give it a whirl. I learned many years ago the traits I hate aren't the same to everyone else, so it's great if I could see for myself. But then one night, or even two, on their home turf, doesn't tell me much. Not to mention that whatever I want to see most likely lives 2-4 states over. Plus the stud and dam are but a snapshot on that pedigree.

And then of course if you see a cross that's popular, by the time you've asked a few questions and slept on it, you will have missed the boat.

Also the actual cost of a pup should mean little. Don't get me wrong, I can't justify big dollars on a pup. However, buying a puppy is a cover charge to a really, really long dance with the best or worst date you've ever endured.

I don't know why I say all this, partly because I'm sick of some of the same ole pitiful advise I see everywhere, and partly because I've been in a tree stand for days and it's been sloooooooooow.

I've tried to simply find a few folks I trust at this point that'll endure my persistence and questions. Its much easier to jump onto a bandwagon than try and create one.

And then, hunt em right, and hunt em hard. If I fail, blame the breeder, right?

Posted by ahallada on 11-10-2015 03:12 PM:

I didn't hunt with any of the sires of my top 3 dogs I owned in the past. They were already gone. Two of them went back to Gr.Nt.Ch Toussaint Red Talker who was one of Danny Biggert's favorites. TImber Jack was a son of his and Brandy was out of Gr.Nt.Ch Indiana Speaker who was a son of Talker. Speaker was known for being one of the top money winning dogs in PCA (PKC) in the 80s. He was known for early starting pups that could compete early on in the money hunts. He was kind of like our modern day Danno. His sire Talker was out of one of the best Redbones of all time , Gr.Nt.Ch Lumpkins Timber Chopper Jr.

I was looking for a line of Redbones that was winning in the big hunts and had the qualities I wanted at the time. The ability to reproduce their likeness was one of them. Gr.Nt.Ch Lumpkins Timber Chopper Jr was the most under utilized and under appreciated stud dogs ever. There were many Timber Chopper stud dogs out there, but this is one dog that put the go and speed in them and a mouth that could be heard for miles. These were big hunt dogs and could compete and win against the best out there.

You just have to know what you want. I was lucky to have hunted with some of the top dogs in the country at an early age, I just wanted to find that in a Redbone. I finally found it after hunting with the above line of dogs. Hunting with the sire or dam is no guarantee, but if you know the characteristics of the line of dogs you are breeding to you will have a better chance of getting what you want. Many of these characteristics are predictable in a line of dogs. There are always going to be freaks that come along that perform better or different than the average for that certain line of dogs, and you just hope you are the lucky one to get it.

Lastly, these performance lists today are kind of cool, but they don't tell the real story. They don't tell you how many dogs from a sire or dam are winning in the big hunts. They have a tendency to sway toward producing above average coondogs that I'm not interested in. All you have to do is produce 100 pups and keep one good litter for you and your buddies and finish them out in these no competition hunts today and your at the top of the list. I take it with a grain of salt. Maybe I'm getting old. Lol

__________________
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Current:

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Cat Scratch Fever
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(Gr.Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch.PKC. Gold Ch.CHKC CH. Outlaw G-Man x Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. Classy Cali)

Past:
Gr.Nt.Ch.Ch. Dawns Timber Jack
1988 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner
1989 UKC World Champion Redbone
1989 Purina Outstanding Redbone Coonhound
#2 Historic Redbone Sire/ Top 20 All Breeds
American Redbone Coonhound Assoc. Hall of Fame

Gr.Nt.Ch. Bussrow Bottom Brandy II
1991 American Redbone Days Champion
1992 AKC World Champion Redbone
1992 ACHA World Champion Redbone
1992 Wisconsin State Champion
1994 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex
Produced 2 Nt. Ch. , 1 Gr.Nt.Ch. out of 2 litters and two Redbone Days Winners

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. PKC Gold Ch. Layton's Classy Cali
2012 UKC World Champion Redbone and 7th Place Overall
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 UKC World Champion Redbone Female
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2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Series Race - 3rd Place Overall
2016 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - New Albany, MS
2016 PKC Texas State Race Winner
2016 PKC Redbone Breed Race Winner
PKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Coffman's Smokin Red Buck
2016 UKC World Hunt 5th Place and World Champion Redbone
2016 National Redbone Days Overall Winner

Gr.Nt.Ch. Reinhart's Central Page
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Brandy II)

Gr.Nt.Ch. Too the Maxx
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Jenkins Crying Katie)
1992 National Redbone Days Champion

Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Ambraw River Rock
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Hersh's Huntin Red Kate)
1992 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex

Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle
1986 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner

Nt.Ch. Timber Mace
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack X Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle)
Mother of Gr.Nt.Ch. Babb's Hazel

Nt. Ch. Timber Shock
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Jessie)

Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Squaw Mountain Goldie
(Direct Daughter of Gr.Nt.Ch.Smokey Mountain Brandy)
1990 Autumn Oaks Best of Show Winner
1988 Indiana State Champion

Posted by RON WOLTER on 11-10-2015 04:16 PM:

Allen H.

Gr. Nt. Toussaint Red Talker -- I don't remember the year, but it was at one of the red events. I drew Talker in a cast
with Dwayne Brough that red Impressed me so much that I wanted to breed my female to him.it never took place.
He had a loud Bawl track & chop tree A GREAT RED

__________________
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Redcoat

Posted by ahallada on 11-10-2015 05:34 PM:

Re: Allen H.

quote:
Originally posted by RON WOLTER
Gr. Nt. Toussaint Red Talker -- I don't remember the year, but it was at one of the red events. I drew Talker in a cast
with Dwayne Brough that red Impressed me so much that I wanted to breed my female to him.it never took place.
He had a loud Bawl track & chop tree A GREAT RED

Ya I remember seeing him at Redbone Days in Bellevue one year with Dewayne and Danny. I never hunted with him unfortunately. I was glad to get a piece of that dog though. Danny told me in the 90s he was the best he ever hunted. That's saying a lot. We sure should have bred more females to him. I think he was only bred to a few. Of the few females he was bred to, he produced Gr.Nt.Ch. Toussaint Red Talker II, Gr.Nt.Ch. Gibson's Indiana Speaker and Gr.Nt.Ch. Dawn's Timber Jack. We also had a littermate female to TJ named Nt.Ch. Dawn's Timber Kate that was one of the hardest and loudest tree dogs I've ever hunted with. My hunting buddies loved her.

Posted by Adam Wingler on 11-10-2015 06:07 PM:

Doc you reiterate a good point that sometimes a sire or dam may be strong enough to throw dominate traits, but if a person really wanted a look see its best to hunt with their pups, from multiple litters. Again, something nearly impossible and why I listen close to you ole timers...er, I mean, more experienced. 😆👍

Posted by HERSHSHUNTIN on 11-10-2015 06:34 PM:

what I like

I like to see how the littermates to that stud and dam are doing as we all can't get to hunt with the stud or ****, sure we also can't hunt with all the littermates to these dogs, but when the rest of the siblings are decent coondogs and winners it just increases the odds that they should throw a better percentage of good pups that'll do well in the woods.--JMO-- I like the ''FAMLIES'' of coondogs to cross with;

Hersh

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Posted by HOBO on 11-10-2015 06:56 PM:

I'd rather hunt with pups off of the cross than the sire and dam, you're not getting either of them but you are getting what they reproduce.

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Posted by Danny Barrett on 11-12-2015 01:50 AM:

Allen

Wasnt Indiana Speaker out of Kenwood shooting star?

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Posted by ahallada on 11-12-2015 11:32 AM:

Re: Allen

quote:
Originally posted by Danny Barrett
Wasnt Indiana Speaker out of Kenwood shooting star?

I don't remember his mom , but she was an Ace daughter so you could be right on that.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 11-12-2015 12:27 PM:

Re: Allen

quote:
Originally posted by Danny Barrett
Wasnt Indiana Speaker out of Kenwood shooting star?

That's correct Danny. And Star was sired by Haye's Ramblin Red Ace.

Posted by Danny Barrett on 11-12-2015 11:32 PM:

Yes

and she was a littermate to my Pigeon River Red Buster and to Bakers Red Cassidy both Grand nights,

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Posted by Chris Snyder on 11-12-2015 11:56 PM:

Do what you can

The two dogs I have now I have raised from pups. My last pup is kenneled next to his mother. She was out of a dog that I hunted with since she was a pup. She was from a dog that I hunted against and hunted with pleasure hunting.

Four generations of dogs that I have spent some time in the woods with can give you some confidence about what to cross on.

You don't have to hunt with the parents, but you have to understand what you are going to get from each side of the family and take a SWAG at what will surface.

Posted by jdgher on 11-13-2015 12:23 AM:

Yes hunt with the parents if possible.

For me it takes at least a couple years of steady hunting to see how a pup is really going to perform night after night (at least 2 years). I would enjoy those 2 years more if I was impressed with the parents of the pup.
If you hunted with the parents, and they didn't really suit you, would you want a pup out of them still?

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Posted by Sawblade on 11-13-2015 02:56 AM:

hunt with

I would agree hunting with both parents is a plus but hunting with as many dogs that have varying degrees of the same bloodline may be better. I have seen exact crosses show somewhat different traits but when you hunt with several dogs out the same stud or same mother ,the cousins and aunts and uncles of those dogs, and get to see how they go, that gives you an even greater vision of what to expect.
Many times it's next to impossible to hunt with both parents and that is when you must trust the breeders and the handlers to be very honest on the traits of their dogs.
One thing is for sure not all pups make the grade, never forget that. Many dogs out of some of my best crosses have been below par. It's the ones that rise to the top that keeps a breeder working on the line.

__________________
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GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
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NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

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Posted by ahallada on 11-13-2015 03:29 AM:

Re: Yes

quote:
Originally posted by Danny Barrett
and she was a littermate to my Pigeon River Red Buster and to Bakers Red Cassidy both Grand nights,

Glad you brought that up Danny because both TJ and Speaker were out of top notch females. Sometimes I don't give the dam side enough credit, but both Dawn and Star were bred right and both were competition coondogs!

TJ was out of Cane Spring Dawn who was originally owned by Gussy Allen. She was an early winner at 2 years of age and retired early after being bought by Max Hunter and Wayne Campbell for breeding. Dawn was from a heavy Timber Chopper line breeding being out of Timber Chip (son of TC) , and Redmond's Queen who was from a half brother and half sister TC cross. In other words she had Timber Chopper in her 3 Generation pedigree 3 times.

I hunted with her at 8 years old before I purchased TJ and she was a really fast strike dog with a nose very few dogs could match. She could literally move tracks other dogs couldn't smell and tree coons on the end. She was a hard little tree dog and couldn't be pushed from the tree. She was built like a little tank. Bill bought her from Max and Wayne and bred her to Talker from the recommendation of Max Hunter. This brought 3 lines of Timber Chopper together in Timber Scanning Radar, Timber Chopper Jr. , and Timber Chip.

When I crossed TJ to Brandy II, daughter of Indiana Speaker, it brought 4 of the most popular competition Timber Chopper lines together by adding Rambling Red Ace, and doubling up on Timber Chopper Jr..

I know you guys had amazing success with that Ace line of dogs too. Each of these TC bloodlines had their own characteristics. One thing they all had in common though is that they were all coon treers and they were all really hard tree dogs. Those are two traits old Timber Chopper passed down to all his offspring. I was fortunate to talk to Jarvis Umphers at that PKC World Hunt this year. He said he was stationed near Max Hunter in Virginia for awhile and got to hunt with Timber Chopper many times. He said Timber Chopper didn't say a whole lot on track, but boy that dog could tree a pile of coon in one night. Coon Dog!

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-13-2015 03:31 AM:

It's nice if you can hunt with the parents...but the next best thing is to see and hear videos of them trailing, locating, and treeing real live wild raccoons. One video like that is worth a thousand pics of dogs on a tree with no sound...that some times turn out to be staged just to get a picture. Years ago a good pic of a stud dog on a tree bred a lot of females...but today its more about substance and reality...with photo shop and dishonest motives becoming more and more common these days...people want to see it as it happens live or on high quality video with sound. Anyone can talk, talk, talk about the dogs in pictures...but if you don't see those same dogs turning up in winner pictures later....doesn't that make you wonder why if they truly are what they are portrayed to be by the person posting the pictures?
Now I'm speaking in terms of competition dogs...not pleasure dogs of course. I have hunted with many dogs that I have seen look good in pictures...but didn't look...or sound so good at night...on wild raccons...in competition against other dogs.
I have seen enough of that...after hearing so much talk from the owners or trainers that anymore I have to at least see and hear a a video and see if it even remotely matches what has been said about the dog. It's just too easy to pull a coon up a tree out of site and get a pic of a dog treeing on it...and describe the dog as something its really not...
But if you see and hear a quality video of a dog your interested in... trailing and then treeing a coon...by itself and you "walk" along with the person shooting the footage...well its the next best thing to being there. Even better if the person shows the Garmin screen from time to time and you can see the distances and how the dog trailed and then when he goes in to the tree and shows the dogs tree style untethered and then backs out and shows you the real live raccoon up in the tree and not a thrown up dead coon or cage coon.
That my friends....well you just can't make that stuff up or stage it. I try to get videos like that every chance I get because ....what I wouldn't give to see and hear a video like that of Timber Chopper, or Famous Amos, or Moonlight Kate or others that influenced this breed before video became easily usable.
I wish everyone made some good video of their redbones and archived it in a place like photobucket or another storage site so future generations can always view it.
I like to hunt with a dog before I breed to it...but its not a requirement if I can get accurate information about the dog in other ways.
If there is quality video of the dog trailing and treeing...what I can see and hear on that video will answer a lot of ...but not all of the questions I may have about the dog.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-13-2015 02:13 PM:

It sure is nice when you have hunted with the Parents, Grandparents, Great Grand Parents and Great Great Grand Parents of a litter of pups. You kinda know what to expect.

Posted by Wade Kuhns on 11-13-2015 04:56 PM:

Adam

What exactly are you looking for in a pup?I know that seems like a real simple question ,but just curious to hear the answer.

Posted by Adam Wingler on 11-13-2015 09:10 PM:

Re: Yes hunt with the parents if possible.

quote:
Originally posted by jdgher
.
If you hunted with the parents, and they didn't really suit you, would you want a pup out of them still?

Highly unlikely.

Posted by Adam Wingler on 11-13-2015 09:43 PM:

Re: Adam

quote:
Originally posted by Wade Kuhns
What exactly are you looking for in a pup?I know that seems like a real simple question ,but just curious to hear the answer.

Mr. Kuhns, my post was more a rant I guess of some of the same ole same ole advice some give on the boards here without really taking the time to help. And that's just my opinion.

But, my biggest demands are drive, heart, quickness, volume, clear locate/changeover, ACCURACY, and the ability to do that ALONE. (Tall order I know). Doesn't mean they have to split every drop, but I demand one to tree a coon for me alone, and not take all night to do it. I hunt a ton by myself, I actually like it, I can learn a dog so much easier with less distractions and also work on his/her faults. Plus I don't have a coon behind every bush either, so they gotta get up and get going by either blasting out or "bird dogging" real quick...and not miss in habit, it ain't flat here.

It's a big list, but I don't settle. I like to compete, but I also don't give a crap if a 50% accurate dog can win a bunch of money, I have to walk behind them the other 4 nights a week and won't do it for long.

So anyhow, I'm still a newbie to redbones I guess, coming up on a year with this new journey. I came to them for a few reasons, but I'm dragging on so I'll shut up.

Sometimes, as a few have said, the best a person can do is layout what they are looking for, ask a ton of questions, and trust your sources...and work hard and hope for the best.

Posted by Wade Kuhns on 11-14-2015 01:42 AM:

advice

Best advice I can give you if you want a nice coondog is get with the best coonhunters in your area and go hunting with them.There is a reason the same guys always have a good dog or dogs.Pups out of generations of top dogs are fine and a good place to start but I will tell you, a World champion in the wrong hands can and will eventually turn sour to a point. So what kind of chance does a pup have in the wrong hands? When you pick a pup ,feel free to call me anytime you have a question,I'll tell you what I would do anyway.1 (717)250-7913

Posted by Adam Wingler on 11-16-2015 04:39 PM:

Thanks Wade, I really appreciate that. Not many rebone followers here tho, a handful faithful to the breed but very few. Which was part of my desire to give em a shot.

Thanks again.

Posted by Danny Barrett on 11-17-2015 02:22 AM:

Adam

quote:
Originally posted by Adam Wingler
Thanks Wade, I really appreciate that. Not many rebone followers here tho, a handful faithful to the breed but very few. Which was part of my desire to give em a shot.

Thanks again.

I have been faithful for a little while and I am not too far from you. Lets hook up sometime.

__________________
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Posted by Wade Kuhns on 11-17-2015 07:46 AM:

There you go Adam, Danny will show you a coondog for sure.Looks like he has a litter in the works too.

Posted by Tony Dominguez on 11-17-2015 08:07 AM:

The best way I learned to pick & it has worked for me is find a consistent line of dogs that hunt the way you like for 1 to hunt & produce the consistentcy that you like, go hunt with different dogs out of that line & do your homework, see what the strong & weak points of the line is, & When a cross is made that you like get you a pup & put the boot leather behind it, good dogs are made by hard dedicated hunters, not by computer hunters that are scared of the dark... The dog is only as good as the time the owner puts into it... If it suits you & you feed it then you're the only person it should have to please.... Yes people will talk good & bad about your dog if it turns out successful, but it'll never matter what they say because your the 1 feeding it, hunting it, & putting your dedication in it... Best of luck in finding a good pup & hope to see you down there road my friend!

Tony

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