UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Curs and Feists (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=5)
-- Line breeding info (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928423260)

Line breeding info

Need info on line breeding to keep and improve traits that I want

line/inbreeding

You are on the right track to lock in the traits you like with your dogs.

I have a couple of lines of Kemmers I really enjoy and working to preserve them.

one example:1) Bred my Duke to Lady Nugget that produced Maggie(treeing machine).2) Bred Duke back to Maggie to 3/4 Duke and produce Beaux Duke(outstanding natural tree dog). 3) Bred Beaux Duke back to Maggie to 3/4 Maggie. Pups 6 wks old now. 4) Will Take 3/4 Dukes to bred back to 3/4 Maggies and start the process over.

The original dogs are from many generations of solid tree dogs to start and I am simply continuing to follow the formula and it works. I am also doing this with my Brindle Jack/WI Buck line. It definitely works and will continue to work.

May not be around long enough but I have intentions to cross the two different lines and select the best pups to start a new line from the cross which can add some more vigor along the way without having to go outside the breed.

With dedicated breeders preserving certain lines of dogs within a breed(Kemmers in this example), it give the added advantage of dogs producing true to form and function and we can add with know traits from other lines.

Just sharing a small part of what has worked for me in the past 25+years with the same stock of dogs.
Charles

__________________
CHARLES FASOLA
ANGIE, LA
CELL#: 985-516-4763
http://treeprokennels.webs.com/

"TREE DOGS ARE BORN NOT MADE"

Let me add to what Turbo had to say....

The real key to line breeding is not on paper. I don't care if dogs share the same ancestors, if they don't share traits...you are paper breeding, not line breeding.

Put another way, in order for me to consider a cross true line breeding the dogs must be related, AND they must operate (look, smell, taste, and feel) alike. I mean think about it, why would you line breed in the first place? Because one or more ancestors possessed the trait(s) that you like. And the best way to preserve that trait(s) is to breed closely related dogs.

Most people have not hunted with enough dogs in a pedigree to be able to honestly say that the dogs are similar.....let alone say that they want to feed and lead a dog like ole "so and so".....

So, before you go down the path of line breeding, make sure that you understand just what you are breeding for, and that will allow you to declare the cross successful.

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

http://www.dogstuff.info/part10_peas_and_pups.html

1.the first thing is to set your goal...size of dog, length of ear, close ranging, long ranging etc...etc...

you have to know what a good hunting dog needs to be in your minds eye...

2.take off your rose colored glasses and throw them in the trash...

you can not make excuses for the dog as to why he does not hunt consistently...

or...he hunts better with ole Joes strike dog...maybe he is a me too dog...

the dog needs to be consistent and needs to be able to do it alone...

3. start with the best dogs you can find that suit you to start your program...

4. select for natural ability first...natural ability begets natural ability...

if you have to feed a ton of tracks to make a dog then you can expect the same from the pups...and each generation thereafter...if you start out with great dogs then they will produce great at first but will degenerate over time with the negative or relaxed mentality...

5. keep as many pups as you are able to keep for as long as needed to select the best you can for that particular time...I say that because a pup that doesn't make the cut at 6 months might become the best one in the litter at 1.5 years...

example; you want to keep 2 pups...test the whole litter and then select the best five to hold back...

test these five pups on trailing and winding and finding...test them for range as they get older test them on treeing or baying piglets/pigs or on whatever game...

you slowly cull back to 4 pups then three and by ten months you may be down to the 2 pups...sometimes the 3 best pups might replace an older dog in the pack...

its kind of like the draft...to maintain the best one must make the right decisions...

breeding is 1/2 the process...selecting and retaining the best pups for hunting and breeding is the other 1/2...

yes...we condition and train the pups and feed them tracks...but look for natural first...a pup that ranges out 3 hundred yards the first time in the woods is definitely something you want to log down...a pup that takes a whipping from a pig and gets back up baying in the pigs face...an 8 week old pup that goes to treeing the house cat on a fence post...you have to be looking and analyzing the pups every chance you get...because those little things tell us what kind of dog the pup will make...and those are the ones who should be used for line breeding...the other posts have good advice...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Nice post Reuben

Hope you been doing well!

I have been breeding these dogs for close to 30 yrs and they were linebred/inbred before I ever heard of a Kemmer dog by the master breeder Robert Kemmer.

I have never trained a dog in my life and at 65 yrs of age dont plan to start now. All the dogs at TreePro Kennels that get the TreePro name are NATURAL TREE DOGS that will go hunting, have above average winding ability and will get under game fast and get hooked fast. I simply put a handle on them and expose them to intended game; pure genetics does the rest!

Here are a few videos of pups from 9 weeks old to 5 mos old showing natural tree. These are the type pups I work with and do cull a lot of tree dogs because of other reasons such as lack of hunt, to much hunt, not enough mouth, lack of track speed, not getting treed in a timely manner, temperament, conformation or simply because I do not like a particular dog.

Rex would tree your hat all day at 9 weeks old but was culled for overbite. His brother, Beaux Duke is one of the best I have owned in 20+ years.
http://vid306.photobucket.com/album.../1328399854.mp4

Rough is a Tn Mtn Hybrid and is so full of hunt and prey drive that he started treeing as soon as he was big enough to get in the woods. He is 3 mos old in video treeing on sq scent from the feeder.
http://vid306.photobucket.com/album...zpsc268d305.mp4

Rough's older sister, Ruby, treed first squirrel after just turning 4 mos old.
http://vid306.photobucket.com/album...27DB82103FE.mp4

My current summer project is the Cookie Monster. She treed her first sq at 5 mos 2 days old. She is a dandy!
http://vid306.photobucket.com/album...zps6bd3ffa5.mp4

I got several others like Dixie, Hershey, Goldie, Beaux Duke, Brindle Jack that are all NATURAL TREE DOGS.

These are the type pups I am working with. No they ain't all like these pups and you have to be able to give them a chance and time to develop. Some will not start til around 12 to 15 mos old but will be as good or better than the 5 mos wonders but you have to know the lines you are working with and the tendencies and be able to cull hard. I tell all my buddies that when you start culling pretty good tree dogs you are on the right track with your breeding program.

I like the inbreeding/linebreeding from many generations as if gives you a good idea of what to expect and when from pups from certain lines. Kind of gets to be like family when your hunting pups from the parents, grand parents, great grand parents and great great grand parents that you spent many days and nights with as a well deserving hunting partner!!

__________________
CHARLES FASOLA
ANGIE, LA
CELL#: 985-516-4763
http://treeprokennels.webs.com/

"TREE DOGS ARE BORN NOT MADE"

yea Charles...I been doing ok...sounds like you are doing well as well...and those are some excellent posts you have posted...

you mentioned too much hunt...when I raised my old line of curs I turned over the dogs pretty quick at first...I called it purifying the line (gene pool)...then I slowed that down once I thought it was producing consistently...

my belief to get the best dogs one must breed our own...that way the pups can be observed and one can make the selection and be happy with it...

but like you mentioned sometimes we cull because we just don't like the dog even though he is a good dog...but I like a dog that gives me that good feeling...

and too much hunt...I did not cull for that but towards the end I was getting hog hunting machines that could and sometimes would hunt themselves to death in the heat of summer...and no quit...so culling for to much hunt is important...something I was not focusing on...
I talked to a man a while back that sold a world champion dog for a lot of money and the old man who bought the dog brought it back and sold him back for a fraction of what he originally paid..said the dog had too much hunt and went to deep...
it has been said many times that a dog is only as good as the bloodline...that may be true but no one really knows everything there is to genetics IMO...

but through selection it is my belief that we select pups and sometimes the genes re-align and we get superior specimens and we can take it to the next level...

IMO (example)...hunting traits are like the different shades of yellow...from almost an off white to a deep goldish yellow that can be found in a litter of yellow dogs...different shades of the yellow represents (example) different intensity levels of hunt...I believe hunting traits can align in the same way...but through testing and hunting the dog one can make an accurate selection...

if certain colors produced certain hunting styles everyone would have the perfect hunting dog for their particular way of hunting...because it is visual...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

thats some good breedin reads fellers.

__________________
yellow gold!