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Judging questions

I have heard people make the commment that anything in a hunt can be voted on. Is that so?
Many years ago when I hunted there were only a couple scenarios that UKC determined were to be voted on and the rest were the judges call and could be questioned. Is that not the way it is anymore?
The last few hunts I have been in have really made me want to learn the most I can and shut some people up so maybe the integrity and common sense can come back to this sport.

Under a hunting judge, any judges call can be questioned and put to a cast vote.
Under a non-hunting judge, nothing can be voted on in the woods but any judges call can be questioned.,

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So the purpose of a judge is to suggest a call and if some one does not like it they call for a vote and hope that the vote will swing there way?
Scenario,
Dog A treed. Standing there the Judge states it sounds like Dog A moved, the handler says he must be in a hole he is not as loud as what he was. Judge states he is not as loud because he moved. Judge states we will see when we get there. Dog B is now treed same general area of Dog A. Upon arrival to the tree the judge declares that Dog A is not in a hole and per earlier conversation Dog A moved. Dog A and B voted that dog A did not move. So even with the conversation earlier about Dog A not being as loud as it was when it originally treed. It ended up being a circle tree so had no true bearing on this particular point value of the card. But had a coon been seen Dog A gained a win it should not have.
Is this how hunts go now? Maybe I am just getting cast with people without integirty but as judges shouldn't they have some type of authority?

Without being there I wont debate on if the dog moved or not but if the judge felt it did it should have been minused at that point not when you walk in. At that point the handler has the right to ask for a cast vote and every cast member has to vote at that time.

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I don't think a hunting judge should have any more"authority" than anyone else who also has a dog in the cast. It's been my experience that the person carrying the card 9 out of 10 times is doing it so they can make calls they want to and ignore others that should have been made. Not because they're a good ol boy helping out . Competition coon hunting will never be perfect or 100% fair all the time. Out of about 150 casts or so over 30 years I've only been blatantly cheated 3 times and twice was by a non-hunting judge .

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With a hunting judge, everything can be voted on with the exception of dogs being scratched for fighting or attempting to fight. That rule says under the authority of the judge.

quote:

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Originally posted by STROKIN
With a hunting judge, everything can be voted on with the exception of dogs being scratched for fighting or attempting to fight. That rule says under the authority of the judge.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
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AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

quote:

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Originally posted by STROKIN
With a hunting judge, everything can be voted on with the exception of dogs being scratched for fighting or attempting to fight. That rule says under the authority of the judge.

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Alen/UKC

So if there is a fight at the tree and two people see it and two don't, then is it just deleted?

Re: Alen/UKC

quote:

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Originally posted by STROKIN
So if there is a fight at the tree and two people see it and two don't, then is it just deleted?

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__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Re: Re: Alen/UKC

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Originally posted by JiM
No. The judge rules. If it is questioned, a vote is taken. It takes a majority to overrule the judge. So on a tie vote, the judges ruling prevails because 2-2 is not a majority.

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Rule 6 (b) For fighting or attempting to fight during the authority of the judge. Rule 18 Attempting to fight: 1) Showing aggressive behavior and 2) interfering with another dog(s) during the authority of the judge.

Both say during the authority of the judge. Nothing about a vote and he holds the tie breaker.

quote:

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Originally posted by STROKIN
Rule 6 (b) For fighting or attempting to fight during the authority of the judge. Rule 18 Attempting to fight: 1) Showing aggressive behavior and 2) interfering with another dog(s) during the authority of the judge.

Both say during the authority of the judge. Nothing about a vote and he holds the tie breaker.

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I always interpreted also that it was the judges decision to scratch because of the wording in the advisor.
I went back and found it in one spot but I know it is referenced a couple times.
PAGE 135 Brown book...
"When it comes to scratching a dog for any reason,including fighting,it is the decision of the hunting judge."

It further states a hunting judge has the same authority as a non-hunting judge in all but 4 situations.


I actually had a situation like this.

3 dog cast. As cast arrived at tree dog A turned and face barked dog B.Dog B growled back at Dog A . Both then got balled up almost in an instant.Dog C was treeing in the mean time this all happened.Judge scratched both dogs.
Handlers of dogs A and B wanted to vote to overturn being scratched . Reason?Each accused the other dog for instigating the fight.Really??
Two dogs balled up and to vote to overturn a hunting judge so as not to get scratched for fighting?

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by msinc
As explained previously, the phrase "during the authority of the judge" refers to the time span that the judge is actually judging the dogs. Also, as previously explained, you can call any decision to a vote if it is a hunting judge. That phrase is specified regarding a dog fight because the authority of the judge starts when he is handed the scorecard. This is very important, especially when it comes to a dog fight. Many people believe the judges job begins when the actual hunt time is running and the dogs are first cut loose...not true. A dog or dogs can get scratched for fighting in the parking lot before the cast ever leaves the club grounds just as they can get scratched for fighting after the cast returns and is unloading or leading dogs around. This is why it is very important for a MOH to ask, "who is going to judge this cast??" before the cast leaves the clubhouse. I have seen dog fights in the parking lot and the cast tried to "let it go" because they claimed they hadn't decided on a judge yet. I always tell the casts that they can change judges later and as manytimes as they want to, but I want somebody to man up when I hand them the scorecard. The judges authority ends when he hands the scorecard to the MOH.
Not sure what you mean when you say, "he holds the tiebreaker"???? You already know how the judge is going to vote, he made the call...I am pretty sure he wont vote against himself. [/QUOTE


why do you ask who is judging the cast? as a MOH or HD it is your job to assign a judge. that is where a lot of clubs mess up.

EDIT>> if you asked me that I would tell you that it was up to you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
As explained previously, the phrase "during the authority of the judge" refers to the time span that the judge is actually judging the dogs. Also, as previously explained, you can call any decision to a vote if it is a hunting judge. That phrase is specified regarding a dog fight because the authority of the judge starts when he is handed the scorecard. This is very important, especially when it comes to a dog fight. Many people believe the judges job begins when the actual hunt time is running and the dogs are first cut loose...not true. A dog or dogs can get scratched for fighting in the parking lot before the cast ever leaves the club grounds just as they can get scratched for fighting after the cast returns and is unloading or leading dogs around. This is why it is very important for a MOH to ask, "who is going to judge this cast??" before the cast leaves the clubhouse. I have seen dog fights in the parking lot and the cast tried to "let it go" because they claimed they hadn't decided on a judge yet. I always tell the casts that they can change judges later and as many times as they want to, but I want somebody to man up when I hand them the scorecard. The judges authority ends when he hands the scorecard to the MOH.
Not sure what you mean when you say, "he holds the tiebreaker"???? You already know how the judge is going to vote, he made the call...I am pretty sure he wont vote against himself.

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quote:

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Originally posted by walkerman75
i agree with you... my only thing is i have seen judges go into tree an scratch a dog for fighting that never did a thing.. he did it so he could win... my dog was already handled an when i was tieing mine he said that the other fellows dog grabed his so he scratched him.. all dogs treed good all night an his was taking sec tree all night.. i never seen anything an the other 2 in cast didnt either . cuz they were trying to get to tree.. dont think was fair but it happend.. judge said it was his call.. i think it should take more then just the judge to see a fight to scratch a dog.....

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pat Bizich
I always interpreted also that it was the judges decision to scratch because of the wording in the advisor.
I went back and found it in one spot but I know it is referenced a couple times.
PAGE 135 Brown book...
"When it comes to scratching a dog for any reason,including fighting,it is the decision of the hunting judge."

It further states a hunting judge has the same authority as a non-hunting judge in all but 4 situations.


I actually had a situation like this.

3 dog cast. As cast arrived at tree dog A turned and face barked dog B.Dog B growled back at Dog A . Both then got balled up almost in an instant.Dog C was treeing in the mean time this all happened.Judge scratched both dogs.
Handlers of dogs A and B wanted to vote to overturn being scratched . Reason?Each accused the other dog for instigating the fight.Really??
Two dogs balled up and to vote to overturn a hunting judge so as not to get scratched for fighting?

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quote:

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Originally posted by buck brush
[QUOTE]Originally posted by msinc
As explained previously, the phrase "during the authority of the judge" refers to the time span that the judge is actually judging the dogs. Also, as previously explained, you can call any decision to a vote if it is a hunting judge. That phrase is specified regarding a dog fight because the authority of the judge starts when he is handed the scorecard. This is very important, especially when it comes to a dog fight. Many people believe the judges job begins when the actual hunt time is running and the dogs are first cut loose...not true. A dog or dogs can get scratched for fighting in the parking lot before the cast ever leaves the club grounds just as they can get scratched for fighting after the cast returns and is unloading or leading dogs around. This is why it is very important for a MOH to ask, "who is going to judge this cast??" before the cast leaves the clubhouse. I have seen dog fights in the parking lot and the cast tried to "let it go" because they claimed they hadn't decided on a judge yet. I always tell the casts that they can change judges later and as manytimes as they want to, but I want somebody to man up when I hand them the scorecard. The judges authority ends when he hands the scorecard to the MOH.
Not sure what you mean when you say, "he holds the tiebreaker"???? You already know how the judge is going to vote, he made the call...I am pretty sure he wont vote against himself. [/QUOTE


why do you ask who is judging the cast? as a MOH or HD it is your job to assign a judge. that is where a lot of clubs mess up.

EDIT>> if you asked me that I would tell you that it was up to you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dean jamerson
In your example you call for a vote, if 3 cast members vote not to scratch, dog is not scratched. 2-2 vote dog would remain scratched. If i am not sure about something i ask for a vote, if something still doesn't seem right i would ? it and carry back to master of hounds for clarity. Its not always that someone is out to "get you" it is how they think it should be done. All you have to do is read some of these post on rules and see that there is a wide variety of interpretation of the rules. Jim Sizemore is usually spot on on how rules are to be applied.

For what its worth i would rather have a judge that makes the calls and then leaves it to the rest of the cast to ? if the need arises. Nothing worse than a fence rider that wants to keep everybody happy, and ask "what do yall think" on every situation or be on a cast where no one wants the card but wants to tell you how to judge all night long.

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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
And if you and the rest of the cast said that to me I will, but wouldn't you agree as a visiting MOH I might not have as good a chance of picking the best man for the job????
Also, if the cast stands there looking at me like I am the idiot I will assign one and not now, right now.
Rules say the club officers or the MOH can {not must or shall} if they so choose, assign a judge...they can also{again, not shall or must} assign a non-hunting judge if there is a reason to feel like it is warranted.
Make no mistake, if I am MOH and I have a reason, or feel like it's warranted, or the club says do it, any cast will be assigned a judge.
I believe the rules are written this way because as a visiting MOH how would I alone know who is best qualified to judge a cast. 12 guys draw out into 3 casts and they will pick three given judges...same 12 draw out a different way and they might not pick the same three guys to judge. As a MOH I want the guys going to the woods to feel like they have the best judge they can, if not I will act on it.
My point before was that since the authority of the judge begins when I hand over that scorecard I have found it in everyone's best interest to preclude any initial problems by making sure a judge is declared asap, not after a major issue pops up.

Edit: On the flip side, you have a good idea Skip...if judges were assigned randomly we would no doubt have a lot more qualified judges. Some people just refuse to participate in this most important of duties. Some people that might otherwise be very good at it just need a little help getting their feet wet. Isn't it funny how typically the guys that bitterly refuse to even try to judge a cast are the ones always crying about getting cheated????? If you don't like the cheating, be a good judge and stop it!!!!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
This is absolutely true...if the judge is making his best effort to do it right and takes a moment to explain why he is making the call he is, a whole lot of that voting on his calls wont be necessary. Sometimes you just get in a cast with a handler that thinks it's his job to try and override everything the judge says...in the good old days he was warned and then scratched for stirring up trouble. He still can be today but because many believe they are supposed to vote on everything this guy gets away with more.

Hey Dean, do you still hunt with the Blondino's???

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quote:

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Originally posted by buck brush
I believe if a judge scratches a handler for stirring up trouble there is no vote and why warn him?? if a judge is going by the rules, there is no need for a vote anyway, you can not vote to break a rule, if you are in my cast and go to yelling and such it is over you are gone because yelling is a threat and if you think you can intimidate a cast doing that even if I'm not the judge I will not stand for that there is rules against that also. then right them up for threating a judge or another handler.

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Re: Re: Alen/UKC

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Originally posted by JiM
No. The judge rules. If it is questioned, a vote is taken. It takes a majority to overrule the judge. So on a tie vote, the judges ruling prevails because 2-2 is not a majority.

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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
This is absolutely true...if the judge is making his best effort to do it right and takes a moment to explain why he is making the call he is, a whole lot of that voting on his calls wont be necessary. Sometimes you just get in a cast with a handler that thinks it's his job to try and override everything the judge says...in the good old days he was warned and then scratched for stirring up trouble. He still can be today but because many believe they are supposed to vote on everything this guy gets away with more.

Hey Dean, do you still hunt with the Blondino's???

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