UKC Forums - For those who have asked me....

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 06-06-2015 01:06 AM:

For those who have asked me....

For those who have emailed, texted and pm'd me about training and keeping dogs tuned and ready for copetitions hunts...
I will try to answer some of the most asked questions about what I do with the dogs I hunt to get them ready and keep them ready for competition.
Now before the negative people jump on here and start in...I'm just going to tell you right now...if you dont want to read what I write...keep.scrolling because this isnt for you...its for the people who have asked me for information and I'm not going to argue over who knows what or who does best...those results post somewhere every Friday and Saturday night.
Now, what most people want to know is what is the most important thing they can do to have a dog ready and to win in competition.
1. Start with a well bred dog from a line of proven competition dogs who are reproducers of the same. Dogs from these lines have been bred for many generations for competition and your odds of raising a winner goes way up when you start with a dog who has proven winners for ancestors.
2. Start your pup right....dont start too soon or expect too much too soon out of even the best bred pup. I usually dont do anything but let them be a puppy till they are 6-8 months old...sometimes older. Do what you can to show them what a Coon is...but dont over do it on the cage coons...usually if they are bred right and are mature enough...3-5 times is plenty. More than that can cause bad habits later.
3. As soon as your pup knows what a Coon is and is interested enough to bark at it...start taking it at night with an older dog who is straight and solid if possible. If you dont have access to one...take the pup alone and walk it up creeks and places where you are likely to cross a hot Coon track. You can even live trap.a few coons and turn them loose up a creek or into a patch of woods and then go get your pup out of the box and walk it over the track.
.....now you just need to repeat the above 2-3 times a week after the pup is 10 months or older. If it does good...call it a night and put the pup up for a couple days to let the lesson sink in. Never ever hunt a 8-14 mo old pup hard like you would an old dog...they can easily loose interest just like a young child.
4. Once your young dog has treed a few easy Coon by itself...start hunting it by itself if it has the drive to go far enough to strike a track. Try to put it near where it will be able to strike a good track every time until it has treed a dozen or so by itself. Stay close to it so you can get to the tree quick when it trees and encourage it some. No need to go overboard...just kneel down and pat its side and talk to it. And in this phase...do not make the mistake most make...do not kill every Coon to your dog! I repeat...do not kill every Coon...in fact, I usually dont kill any. I may give a dog one or two of the first Coon they tree alone on...then not another till they have treed 15-25. After that...the dog has formed a habit and if it is bred right will probably not need more than one out of every 25-30 Coon to stay focused and sharp.
I know lots of people will tell you different...but most coons that get killed to dogs are just wasted coons. I train a lot of young dogs and win a lot in competition and I rarely kill more than a dozen coons a year (unless I make a trip during kill season to hunt with people and they want to shoot some for fur)
Dogs these days just dont need them...its bred into them to tree....or it should be anyway!
5. How do I keep the dogs I am hunting sharp and tuned up for competition? I hunt them alone. It may not sound like much...but most big winning dogs all get hunted mostly by themselves between competition hunts. This will be key to your dogs success when in competition. It builds your dogs confidence and your dog learns valuable lessons at its own pace without pressure or influence from other dogs. You simply cannot properly prepare or maintain a young competition dog by pleasure hunting with buddies and several other dogs all the time. Older dogs...sometimes can be maintained and still be pretty sharp by hunting mainly with a few other dogs...but its rare to see any of these winning big. I cannot overstate the importance of what I just said....if you want your dog to be at its very best in competition on the weekend...it needs to be hunted 2-4 nights alone for every night its in competition each week. This develops a dogs skills and ability much faster and brings out a dogs independence...and trust me...independence wins a lot of casts.
A young dog will be able to reach its full potential sooner and with fewer setbacks by getting hunted alone 75-80% of the time than it ever will being pleasure hunted with other dogs and your buddies.
...I know, I know...its not as much fun to hunt by yourself and when your dog starts really doing good you naturally want to show other people...maybe even test it against other dogs. Well, thats ok...once in a while but keep it to a minimum. Usually when I get people who come for a hunt...we split drop the dogs. We will drop theirs once ...then mine once and continue that through the night. Many times people get disappointed because they bring a dog and want to see if it can beat mine...and I tell them to pay their entry on the weekend and see if they can beat mine in a regulated competition hunt. Some understand, some dont. But know this... a single bad experience can change a young dog for the rest of their lives. One encounter with a truly mean dog, one encounter with a dog who chews or runs the tree bad, even a digger can trigger your dog to adopt that bad habit. Keep the risks to a minimum (for me that usually means only hunting young dogs with others in competition hunts)
Another tip I will give you is this....I never like to put a young dog up for the night after a competition hunt cast is over. Regardless of how the dog performed...it was influenced by the other dogs and I want my dog to forget most of what it experienced....so I always make a drop or two on my way home from the hunt if at all possible. I let my dog tree a Coon and stay treed for 10-20 mins minimum because thats the one thing I want it to remember from that night....not what happened on that cast.
Of course there are lots more things that could be talked about but these are pretty much universal for most young competition dogs I hunt. Repetition is the key to a dogs learning quickly....and remember...when a dog is repeating bad behavior and you allow it to continue...you are actually "training" that dog and it is forming that habit, so do not let bad behavior repeat itself ....it only takes 5-6 times for a dog to develop a habit...good or bad.
I hope this has offered some answers to the many folks who have been writing to me. I dont have a lot of spare time during the competition season to write everyone back so its easier just to answer most of them in one post.
Good luck everyone...looks like it may be a great year for the redbones!
Shane

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by DRP on 06-06-2015 03:13 AM:

Pretty much nailed it Shane!

Posted by Rob Farr on 06-06-2015 02:55 PM:

Good post Shane. I agree with you. Dogs don't need to be fed coons all the time if they are bred right to tree. How many have seen an 8 week old bird dog pup pointing a quail wing? It hasn't had any birds shot over it. It does it because it is bred to. I think treedogs are the same. I agree about hunting dogs alone also. I have 2 hounds and love them both. They are good strike and track dogs and quick treedogs and tree as hard as anyones hounds but if they have a hole it is they aren't quite as independant as I wish they were. I think it is because I didn't hunt them alone enough when they were young. That is on me. Again good advice.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 06-07-2015 06:49 PM:

Thanks guys...just tried to explain what has worked best for me over the years. I know a lot of people dont like to hunt by themselves or hunt their dog alone. It may not be as much fun as hunting with your buddies dogs...but I think its a necessary part of any competition dogs training. Good luck to everyone.

Posted by rpfirman on 06-10-2015 07:31 PM:

GOOD POST

I hope you get a lot of people to read this well done SHANE GOOD HUNTING

Posted by RUTTIN' RIDGE on 06-15-2015 02:32 PM:

MESSAGE FROM AN OLD TIMER

Shane,
I couldn't agree with you more on your opinions and your training style. I have been raising and training young dogs since I was about 18 years old. I will turn 64 years old in Nov. of this year. I have never been a man who thought he knew everything about young dogs because I have always tried to learn something new each time I go to the woods. Every new young dog presents new challenges it seems. You and I are definitely on the same page as to what we do and expect out of our young dogs. I am so happy that you posted this thread so that our younger comrades can learn from this. The only difference between you and I is that I dropped out of the competition world for a long time due to the bad sportsmanship and cheating that I was experiencing as a younger man. I shouldn't have let it get to me like I did but over the years, the rule changes that were made in UKC has made me feel a little more comfortable with participating. The only trouble I have now is my age and my health. I just came off my 5th major spine surgery June 1 of this year. I am still having trouble with the younger men in the casts running off and getting ahead of me in the casts and most of the time I accredit that to lack of respect for your elders, so when I can I let a young trustworthy handler hunt my dogs for me.. The one and most important things that I could ever stress to the young handlers out there is this...... ALWAYS CALL YOUR OWN DOG HONESTLY WHEN YOU ARE ON A CAST AND LET HONESTY BUILD YOUR INTEGRITY... ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH AND YOU WILL NEVER HAVT TO REMEMBER WHAT YOU HAVE SAID TO ANYONE. NEVER FORGET THIS YOU YOUNG COMPITITTION HUNTERS AND YOU AND YOUR DOGS WILL DO WELL..... THE GOOD LORD WILL BLESS YOU AND YOUR HOUNDS FOR BEING HONEST. NEVER LIE ABOUT OR BRAG ABOUT YOUR DOGS....LET YOUR DOGS DO THEIR OWN BRAGGING THEMSELVES. NO ONE LIKES A BRAGGER OR A BLOWHARD...NO ONE.
Anyway Shane, my hat is off to you and I will always have respect for you. I hope that many competition hunters will take the time to read this.
One more thing of utmost importance to you young dog handlers,,,, Not all of them young dogs make it....
There is such a thing as a bad prospect and a cull....
Deal with that situation the best way you know how but remember this from an old timer....NEVER EVER SELL ANYONE A BAD DOG THAT SHOULD BE CULLED.. IF YOU DO, IT WILL GET OUT AND YOUR NAME WILL BE MUD FROM THAT DAY ON. AN OLD MAN TAUGHT ME THIS WHEN I WAS A BOY AND I NEVER FORGOT IT.

GOOD HUNTING TO YOU ALL AND MAY GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR HOUNDS. HE HAS CERTAINLY BLESSED ME.....

__________________
RUTTIN' RIDGE REDBONES
BEST WISHES TO EVERYONE

*SAVE A JOB - SAVE A FAMILY*
BUY AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 06-15-2015 06:05 PM:

Thanks...
I want everyone to know that I am not trying to tell anyone what they should do. I wrote this out to answer all the questions and requests from others who want to know what I do and how I do it with my competition dogs. Im sure there are other ways of doing things...but these are the things I have settled on after many years of raising and training competition dogs. They are proven methods that do not cause more problems down the road and that is one thing folks should be careful of....
In training.... most things you do besides just letting your dog hunt are actually going to be in the form of correction. As the pup gets older they require less and less correction because the natural ability comes out and the instinct kicks in and becomes habit. Never make the mistake of correcting a dog ( or encouraging a dog) in a way they will lead to more problems later.
For example...I dont over work them on cage Coon or drags they can see...because it will cause them to be unsure later when they can only smell it. I never shoot out off game like a possum or squirrel and then correct it for treeing it. A dog will be so filled with adrenaline after grabbing it the correction will not be understood or remembered well. I hardly ever shoot coons out but if I did it would never be to a young dog who treed with another dog or dogs...it would always be when they treed one alone. I have found that the best way to keep a dog pressure proofed and not turn it into a me too dog.
I never...never...ever try to squall, shake, or shoot coons out alive to young dogs. Sometimes it only takes one time of squalling a Coon out and it getting away to completely and sometimes permanently turn a solid stay put tree dog into one who is not!
If you feel like you have to shoot a Coon out to a dog...my advise is to always put it out dead.
I have seen many pups over the years ruined by getting bit really bad because their owners shook out a Coon or squealed one down and made it jump out.
Well I hope many people can try the things I have talked about and maybe help them get past some rough spots in there training without making the same mistakes that many others make. Good luck everyone.

Posted by Blacklabel on 06-18-2015 01:04 PM:

Inbox is full

__________________
Justin Coffel

The will to win is not nearly as important as the will to prepare to win. Everyone wants to win but not everyone wants to prepare to win." - Bobby Knight

Posted by jerhovt on 06-18-2015 04:05 PM:

This was full of information thanks I enjoyed reading it!!

__________________
Hounds I own
PR LT Redcoat Wait Till Sundown(Dual Grand T-Top Dark Timber Moose X Longtrail Redcoat Reaper)

PR Long Trail Redcoat Lucky Walter (Dual GR T-Top Dark Timber Moose xSML Dark Timber Bobbie Ann) co owner Ron Wolters

PR Long Trail Redcoat Reaper(GRCHPR Hershs Huntin Red 90/4 Life Gun HTX X CH PR Stone&Redcoat DBL Moon Kate II) co owner Ron Wolters

Hounds Im hunting
PR Soggy Bottom Dark Timber Addy : owners Buck Ratliff/Mike Laster

NTCH GRCH Dark Timber Red Angus : owners Buck Ratliff and Myself

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 06-18-2015 04:47 PM:

Sorry Justin,I have emptied my inbox. Thats one reason I wrote this thread was to answer a lot of questions at once but I still get lots of pm's and sometimes it takes me awhile to get them all answered.

Posted by qchounds on 06-20-2015 08:37 PM:

That's some good info, Shane. I know wayyy too many people that never single a dog out, give them scores of caged coons, and wonder why they never have an independent, confident tree dog. Thanks for the information

__________________
Dave Miller
5634994055
NtCh Miller's Alone Again Hannah

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 06-22-2015 08:34 PM:

I just wanted to explain to those who have asked ....how I start, train and keep tuned the dogs I win with in competition. I'm sure others do things differently, but Over the years one of the things I try not to do is use training techniques that will cause unintended side effects or problems down the road. I see many people doing this on a regular basis and they done even realize it until its too late. I would encourage anyone interested in starting and training their own dog to always look further than just the main thing your want to teach your dog. Look for little problems and stop those things before they become big problems through repetition. Good luck to everyone who wants to raise and train their own. Most folks can do it...its not rocket science but you do need to know some basics that will keep you and your dog on the right track.

Posted by S.S. Kennels on 06-24-2015 05:54 PM:

That was a good read...I agree with you 100% on how you train your young dogs...I tend to go a step farther and hold my young dogs out of comp hunts for longer than most just because of some of the junk people drag in...I don't see the point in taking a chance on ruining a nice prospect over a win slip...thats just my opinion and I'm sure some won't agree but to each their own...Im hitting the woods with my young ice female tonight....wish me luck lol

__________________
David Gunter

The Old Dog

Gunters Hardwoods Hank - Walker - Cumberland River Marvin x Peppermint Pepper

Girly Girl - Feist - Super Sport x Gannons Heidi

The Pups

Gunters Sweet Tn Kandy Kane - Redbone - Kodak x Ruby

Posted by HERSHSHUNTIN on 08-03-2015 06:14 PM:

back up for some good advise, not the only way, but a very good way

__________________
Herschel Burt

hershtwo@yahoo.com
Life member NRA
Current dogs
GR CH NT CH RED MIGHTY 90-Bo/Sierra
NT.CH.GR CH BEYOND BILLY HTX --Billy the Kid/ Amber
GR CH 1ST & 2ND place wins 90/4 LIFE GUN-HTX==-Willy BOY/Bigtime Britt
Dogs I have owned
Nt ch Gr ch HERSHS HUNTIN RED IKE
NT CH CH HERSHS HUNTIN BUDDY
GR NT CH MILLERS DIRTY RED
NT CH CH LYNN'S CREEK JULIE
GR CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED KATE
CH NITE CH AMBRAW RIVER TIMBER ROCK
NT CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED CLEM
NT CH ROCKY TOP CHERRY

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-09-2017 02:37 AM:

Re: For those who have asked me....

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
For those who have emailed, texted and pm'd me about training and keeping dogs tuned and ready for copetitions hunts...
I will try to answer some of the most asked questions about what I do with the dogs I hunt to get them ready and keep them ready for competition.
Now before the negative people jump on here and start in...I'm just going to tell you right now...if you dont want to read what I write...keep.scrolling because this isnt for you...its for the people who have asked me for information and I'm not going to argue over who knows what or who does best...those results post somewhere every Friday and Saturday night.
Now, what most people want to know is what is the most important thing they can do to have a dog ready and to win in competition.
1. Start with a well bred dog from a line of proven competition dogs who are reproducers of the same. Dogs from these lines have been bred for many generations for competition and your odds of raising a winner goes way up when you start with a dog who has proven winners for ancestors.
2. Start your pup right....dont start too soon or expect too much too soon out of even the best bred pup. I usually dont do anything but let them be a puppy till they are 6-8 months old...sometimes older. Do what you can to show them what a Coon is...but dont over do it on the cage coons...usually if they are bred right and are mature enough...3-5 times is plenty. More than that can cause bad habits later.
3. As soon as your pup knows what a Coon is and is interested enough to bark at it...start taking it at night with an older dog who is straight and solid if possible. If you dont have access to one...take the pup alone and walk it up creeks and places where you are likely to cross a hot Coon track. You can even live trap.a few coons and turn them loose up a creek or into a patch of woods and then go get your pup out of the box and walk it over the track.
.....now you just need to repeat the above 2-3 times a week after the pup is 10 months or older. If it does good...call it a night and put the pup up for a couple days to let the lesson sink in. Never ever hunt a 8-14 mo old pup hard like you would an old dog...they can easily loose interest just like a young child.
4. Once your young dog has treed a few easy Coon by itself...start hunting it by itself if it has the drive to go far enough to strike a track. Try to put it near where it will be able to strike a good track every time until it has treed a dozen or so by itself. Stay close to it so you can get to the tree quick when it trees and encourage it some. No need to go overboard...just kneel down and pat its side and talk to it. And in this phase...do not make the mistake most make...do not kill every Coon to your dog! I repeat...do not kill every Coon...in fact, I usually dont kill any. I may give a dog one or two of the first Coon they tree alone on...then not another till they have treed 15-25. After that...the dog has formed a habit and if it is bred right will probably not need more than one out of every 25-30 Coon to stay focused and sharp.
I know lots of people will tell you different...but most coons that get killed to dogs are just wasted coons. I train a lot of young dogs and win a lot in competition and I rarely kill more than a dozen coons a year (unless I make a trip during kill season to hunt with people and they want to shoot some for fur)
Dogs these days just dont need them...its bred into them to tree....or it should be anyway!
5. How do I keep the dogs I am hunting sharp and tuned up for competition? I hunt them alone. It may not sound like much...but most big winning dogs all get hunted mostly by themselves between competition hunts. This will be key to your dogs success when in competition. It builds your dogs confidence and your dog learns valuable lessons at its own pace without pressure or influence from other dogs. You simply cannot properly prepare or maintain a young competition dog by pleasure hunting with buddies and several other dogs all the time. Older dogs...sometimes can be maintained and still be pretty sharp by hunting mainly with a few other dogs...but its rare to see any of these winning big. I cannot overstate the importance of what I just said....if you want your dog to be at its very best in competition on the weekend...it needs to be hunted 2-4 nights alone for every night its in competition each week. This develops a dogs skills and ability much faster and brings out a dogs independence...and trust me...independence wins a lot of casts.
A young dog will be able to reach its full potential sooner and with fewer setbacks by getting hunted alone 75-80% of the time than it ever will being pleasure hunted with other dogs and your buddies.
...I know, I know...its not as much fun to hunt by yourself and when your dog starts really doing good you naturally want to show other people...maybe even test it against other dogs. Well, thats ok...once in a while but keep it to a minimum. Usually when I get people who come for a hunt...we split drop the dogs. We will drop theirs once ...then mine once and continue that through the night. Many times people get disappointed because they bring a dog and want to see if it can beat mine...and I tell them to pay their entry on the weekend and see if they can beat mine in a regulated competition hunt. Some understand, some dont. But know this... a single bad experience can change a young dog for the rest of their lives. One encounter with a truly mean dog, one encounter with a dog who chews or runs the tree bad, even a digger can trigger your dog to adopt that bad habit. Keep the risks to a minimum (for me that usually means only hunting young dogs with others in competition hunts)
Another tip I will give you is this....I never like to put a young dog up for the night after a competition hunt cast is over. Regardless of how the dog performed...it was influenced by the other dogs and I want my dog to forget most of what it experienced....so I always make a drop or two on my way home from the hunt if at all possible. I let my dog tree a Coon and stay treed for 10-20 mins minimum because thats the one thing I want it to remember from that night....not what happened on that cast.
Of course there are lots more things that could be talked about but these are pretty much universal for most young competition dogs I hunt. Repetition is the key to a dogs learning quickly....and remember...when a dog is repeating bad behavior and you allow it to continue...you are actually "training" that dog and it is forming that habit, so do not let bad behavior repeat itself ....it only takes 5-6 times for a dog to develop a habit...good or bad.
I hope this has offered some answers to the many folks who have been writing to me. I dont have a lot of spare time during the competition season to write everyone back so its easier just to answer most of them in one post.
Good luck everyone...looks like it may be a great year for the redbones!
Shane

These methods still work and produce coondogs and winners...

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