UKC Forums - Within the rules-Stationary question

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 05-31-2015 09:25 PM:

Within the rules-Stationary question

4 Dog cast- All Dogs struck, Dogs A-B-C are declared treed. 1-2 minutes into the 5, dog D falls treed to the left (obvious split tree) from Dogs A-B-C. Handler of dog D wants to leave his dog treeing but not declare it treed until completion of scoring dogs A-B-C tree

Can a judge apply a stationary rule to dog D which is obviously treed but not yet declared treed, at the same time that the 5 is running on the tree of dogs A-B-C???

Just curious what is the proper way to deal with a dog that is treeing but not yet declared treed. Does the handler of dog D have that option or can a judge require a call on dog D by applying the stationary rule.

I don't know the answer to this but looking for someone who does. Can you point me to the rule that gives direction on this issue?

Thanks in advance

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Posted by john Duemmer on 05-31-2015 09:35 PM:

you can apply the stationary but you will have to break it when you score the other dogs tree. The only time it could catch the dog is if AB and C all leave their tree.

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Posted by yadkintar on 05-31-2015 09:40 PM:

It's just me but I wouldn't tree mine till your shine time is about up to leash lock you. In case you don't have a coon and I do but that's me !! But if the judge does put the stationary on him all he's going to do is wait till it's almost up and tree anyway it's called strategy !!

Posted by DFred on 05-31-2015 09:49 PM:

The rule is 6 (o). It says, "If handler fails to declare treed a dog obviously treeing (Judge's decision ) for a period of five minutes. Dog may be declared treed while the five is running but not after the five has expired. Judge must verify dog to be at a tree before it can be scratched. If the cast is in the process of shining a separate tree time shall be canceled or not applied to another dog. "

If you can keep separate fives on split trees then you should be able to run the five on the first tree and the stationary on the second. In this case the judge could have put the stationary on that dog but would probably have had to delay shine time to make it stand. If the stationary was still running when shine time started then stationary would be cancelled.

Posted by pigsit on 05-31-2015 10:36 PM:

Why not just declare the dog treed, ask permission to handle it, go tie dog, go to first tree to help score it. Dogs are still leash locked until your tree is scored. This way you don't have any pressure.

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Posted by yadkintar on 05-31-2015 10:43 PM:

Burn hunt time expectially when in a case if iam getting plus and your not jmo.

Posted by Slowpoke 2012 on 05-31-2015 10:45 PM:

Leash Locked

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
It's just me but I wouldn't tree mine till your shine time is about up to leash lock you. In case you don't have a coon and I do but that's me !! But if the judge does put the stationary on him all he's going to do is wait till it's almost up and tree anyway it's called strategy !!

I had heard they did away with the "Leash Locked" rule this year.

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Posted by joey on 05-31-2015 11:46 PM:

Re: Within the rules-Stationary question

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
4 Dog cast- All Dogs struck, Dogs A-B-C are declared treed. 1-2 minutes into the 5, dog D falls treed to the left (obvious split tree) from Dogs A-B-C. Handler of dog D wants to leave his dog treeing but not declare it treed until completion of scoring dogs A-B-C tree

Can a judge apply a stationary rule to dog D which is obviously treed but not yet declared treed, at the same time that the 5 is running on the tree of dogs A-B-C???

Just curious what is the proper way to deal with a dog that is treeing but not yet declared treed. Does the handler of dog D have that option or can a judge require a call on dog D by applying the stationary rule.

I don't know the answer to this but looking for someone who does. Can you point me to the rule that gives direction on this issue?

Thanks in advance

You can but you will have to break it when you get to the point that you can not hear him well enough to run the 5. So depending on the situation it could catch him before you get to the other dogs treed or you get to where you cant hear it.

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Posted by Charles Pullen on 06-01-2015 01:06 AM:

No do not put the stationary on dog D if a declared tree has been called . Why cause how can you be in 2 different places at the same time . You need to be at A,B,C tree and when the 5 is up & score it too . So I say no .

Posted by DFred on 06-01-2015 02:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
No do not put the stationary on dog D if a declared tree has been called . Why cause how can you be in 2 different places at the same time . You need to be at A,B,C tree and when the 5 is up & score it too . So I say no .

Sorry but that reasoning doesn't make sense to me. If dog D WAS declared treed would you not start the clock on him because you can't be at 2 different places at the same time?

Posted by high ridge on 06-01-2015 02:36 AM:

When dog D is treed all dogs are then treed so go handle them all and start scoring.

You can't put stationary on dog D because you nor the hunters in case of question can judge dog D properly. He could come off with a ground barks while you are leaving to score the others. He could shut up,etc. No way can you put stationary on a dog when others are treed.

I would use the strategy part myself if it was my dog. Unless,I was only struck for a quarter. In that case I would go ahead tree,handle,score them all and turn loose for a fresh set of strike points.

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Posted by groworg1 on 06-01-2015 02:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by DFred
Sorry but that reasoning doesn't make sense to me. If dog D WAS declared treed would you not start the clock on him because you can't be at 2 different places at the same time?

if dog d was declared treed all dogs would be treed and all trees would be closed so no you would not start the 5 on dog d

Posted by joey on 06-01-2015 02:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by high ridge
When dog D is treed all dogs are then treed so go handle them all and start scoring.

You can't put stationary on dog D because you nor the hunters in case of question can judge dog D properly. He could come off with a ground barks while you are leaving to score the others. He could shut up,etc. No way can you put stationary on a dog when others are treed.

In PKC you stop the stationary as soon as you start to another dog that is treed thats not the case in UKC. As long as you can hear him you can judge him. You would only stop it if you got to a place that you can not judge the dog before his five expires.

Posted by DFred on 06-01-2015 03:58 AM:

Thanks for the explanation guys. Makes more sense now. Apparently I didn't think my last question through. What I meant was why couldn't the stationary be placed on one dog while tree time was running on another if 2 or more tree times can be ran independently? I do see the strategy and also how it would be tough to judge the stationary dog while judging the other dogs too.

Posted by Rocketman55 on 06-01-2015 03:51 PM:

Thanks for the many responses. I can see why you wouldn't want to tree your dog as #1, you could eliminate the squalling for 7 of the 10 minute shine time, for dogs A-B-C thus giving them less time to find the coon by squalling, and #2 you could eliminate the possibility of your dog pulling when the squalling does occur.

Some have suggested you have to stop the stationary when you are unable to properly hear dog D. What if dog D is only treed 30 to 50 yards from the remaining dogs. Would it then be OK to keep the stationary time running, so long as you didn't start shining the tree??

My interpretation of rule 6(o) is that if you are NOT in the process of scoring a different tree, it would then be OK to leave the stationary time running so long as you could still hear/assess the dog properly.

In this particular case I believe dog D was treed in close proximity of dogs A-B-C, as I was told they saw the dog on the tree as they walked past it to handle dogs A-B-C.

I was not on this particular cast so I don't know all the details, but it is my understanding all the above information is accurate as to the situation that occurred. I am curious as to the proper way to deal with this type situation if/when it occurs on a cast I am responsible for judging.

P.S. I hate the stationary rule anyway, but its on the scorecard so I have to learn the proper way to apply it, LOL!!

Posted by Tim MACHA on 06-01-2015 06:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pigsit
Why not just declare the dog treed, ask permission to handle it, go tie dog, go to first tree to help score it. Dogs are still leash locked until your tree is scored. This way you don't have any pressure.

Once shine time has started, no members may leave the tree. So, if the guy treed his dog, he couldn't go to it until the first tree is scored.

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Posted by z sinnwell on 06-01-2015 06:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
In PKC you stop the stationary as soon as you start to another dog that is treed thats not the case in UKC. As long as you can hear him you can judge him. You would only stop it if you got to a place that you can not judge the dog before his five expires.

If you move at all while that stationary is going, you can not accurately judge that dog and need to break it. Doesn't matter if its barking and you can hear it.

Posted by pigsit on 06-01-2015 07:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim MACHA
Once shine time has started, no members may leave the tree. So, if the guy treed his dog, he couldn't go to it until the first tree is scored.

If I read it right, shine time hadn't started, the five was still running. Tom

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Posted by joey on 06-01-2015 07:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by z sinnwell
If you move at all while that stationary is going, you can not accurately judge that dog and need to break it. Doesn't matter if its barking and you can hear it.

That doesn't really make sense to me considering we do it all the time when going to split trees. If you can judge the dog the time keeps going if you can then you stop it.

Posted by z sinnwell on 06-01-2015 08:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
That doesn't really make sense to me considering we do it all the time when going to split trees. If you can judge the dog the time keeps going if you can then you stop it.

We are saying the same thing essentially. If you can't judge the dog, you have to break it. In my opinion moving from a dog that a judge placed the stationary on, should break it. The judge placed the stationary on the dog, meaning the dog hasn't moved. How do you judge this when you are moving? You ever hunted with a bluetick and listened to one of those things waller around in the same spot?

I hear you and I understand what you are saying about walking from split trees. I see where you are coming from me. But treeing a dog is declaring a dog treed. Where the stationary is a judge telling you he believes your dog (which he doesn't know) is treeing or not moving. In my opinion, the judge doesn't know my dog and his ruling on the stationary should be held to be more accurate and by moving this is not accomplished.

If that is the case and you can walk away from a dog that the stationary is working on, we will be standing there until my stationary is up.

I don't know the trophy rules that well, this might be located right next to the "under the canopy rule", "I have to scratch you because I will win that way rule", "or there could be a kit coon up there rule..."

LOL

Posted by berger on 06-01-2015 09:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
.

Some have suggested you have to stop the stationary when you are unable to properly hear dog D. What if dog D is only treed 30 to 50 yards from the remaining dogs. Would it then be OK to keep the stationary time running, so long as you didn't start shining the tree??

My interpretation of rule 6(o) is that if you are NOT in the process of scoring a different tree, it would then be OK to leave the stationary time running so long as you could still hear/assess the dog properly.

In this particular case I believe dog D was treed in close proximity of dogs A-B-C, as I was told they saw the dog on the tree as they walked past it to handle dogs A-B-C.

Here is my take on this. If any judge or handlers would keep time running on stationary and would not let me shine the tree my dog is treed on so they could keep the stationary running then I would place a question to have them scratched from cast for deliberately delaying the cast.
Once the 5 is up on the stationary the judge would need to go to that dog to make sure he is treeing and not called. He can not wait and go see if the dog is treed after you shine the tree he would need to do it immediately. Again he would deliberately be delaying the cast. Once my dog is treed I don't care how many dogs are split treed and not called or how many have the stationary put on them once my 5 is up we go to the tree that dogs have been called and all stationaries need to be deleted so you are not deliberately delaying cast other wise I will question that you be scratched for intentionally delaying cast.

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Posted by berger on 06-01-2015 09:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by z sinnwell
Where the stationary is a judge telling you he believes your dog (which he doesn't know) is treeing or not moving.
LOL

You can not put a stationary on a dog that is not moving you can only put it on a dog that is obviously treed and not called treed in UKC.

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Posted by DFred on 06-01-2015 10:01 PM:

Berger, what rule would you use for delay of cast?

Posted by berger on 06-01-2015 10:06 PM:

unsportsmen like conduct intentionally delaying cast.

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Posted by DFred on 06-01-2015 10:56 PM:

That is an interesting interpretation of unsportsmanlike conduct. We are talking about 1-2 minutes difference on dogs that are throwing distance apart. And it's for the sake of making a ruling, not avoiding a ruling. I'm not sure how I would handle this one. I'm just trying to learn. The way I see it the handler of dog D is gonna either call dog treed at the last second and leash lock yours ,wasting even more of your hunt time, or be scratched for not calling his dog treed when he should have.

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