UKC Forums - Striking and treeing without hearing?

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Posted by Muckey on 05-21-2015 03:09 PM:

Striking and treeing without hearing?

With the use of telemetry in the hunts, I have been seeing this a lot more lately. A handler that strikes and/or trees their dog that nobody hears. How should this be handled?

I have seen it done different ways by different judges.

1. Judge has authority and doesn't accept the call.

2. Awarding the points and then minusing the points.

3. Awarding the points and placing the 8 minute or 2 minute rule on them.

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Posted by HOBO on 05-21-2015 03:18 PM:

You can't strike or tree a dog that can't be heard.

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Posted by jkidd1 on 05-21-2015 03:30 PM:

I had this happen 2 hunts ago. I was judging, the man struck his dog, I hadn't heard a sound from any dog. I ask the rest of the cast if they heard the dog. Replies was NO. I did not put his dog on the paper. Right or wrong that's how I handled it.

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Posted by Muckey on 05-21-2015 03:37 PM:

I should have been more specific. I have seen handlers say that they hear their dogs and want to call them. With a hunting judge, do they accept the call or no? If he/she does, should they place the time on them? Do they only accept the call when the judge hears the dog? After the call, does the cast walk towards the dog in the distance to better hear them? What if another dog opens that is louder? Do you accept that dogs call but not the other?

Posted by Rough Northern on 05-21-2015 04:34 PM:

Funny Stuff

I was in a $KC hunt. A guy struck his dog off the garmin and nobody could hear it, no big deal. While scoring a tree, same handler treed said dog. After we scored the tree the judge said lets go to your dog and started walking. We walked for a couple minutes and stopped to listen. The two minutes got put on the dog and handler pulls out his garmin and said we walked the wrong way! Judge asked handler how could the entire cast walk the wrong way going to a treed dog? I smiled all the way home.

Posted by GA DAWG on 05-21-2015 04:36 PM:

Judge is not supposed to except a call he cant hear. Let the handler push the issue and it can go bad for the ol handler.

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 05-21-2015 04:59 PM:

Re: Striking and treeing without hearing?

quote:
Originally posted by Muckey
With the use of telemetry in the hunts, I have been seeing this a lot more lately. A handler that strikes and/or trees their dog that nobody hears. How should this be handled?

I have seen it done different ways by different judges.

1. Judge has authority and doesn't accept the call.

2. Awarding the points and then minusing the points.

3. Awarding the points and placing the 8 minute or 2 minute rule on them.

Don't accept the call.

Posted by Ray&Luie on 05-21-2015 05:04 PM:

Striking and treeing

Turn it around , what if there is a hound barking no one will call ?

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Posted by ed esposti on 05-21-2015 05:41 PM:

Strike you would give next available and minus it, If dog is treeing and they wont call it you apply the stationary on that dog

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Posted by HERSHSHUNTIN on 05-21-2015 05:54 PM:

Re: Re: Striking and treeing without hearing?

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Don't accept the call.

AND THIS IS HOW IT WAS HANDLED , JUDGE WOULD NOT ACCEPT HIS CALL AS NO DOG WAS HEARD BY ANYONE ELSE

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Posted by Muckey on 05-21-2015 06:09 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Striking and treeing without hearing?

quote:
Originally posted by HERSHSHUNTIN
AND THIS IS HOW IT WAS HANDLED , JUDGE WOULD NOT ACCEPT HIS CALL AS NO DOG WAS HEARD BY ANYONE ELSE

Hersh, I knew you handled it correctly in our hunt. But I have been in a few hunts that get handled differently. I wanted to see others opinions and hopefully get a ruling by Allen for everybody to see.

In the hunt that we were in together. I didn't appreciate the other guy arguing with you about it and his use of language. You handled it well. I commend you on your patience.

Posted by Fire Archer on 05-21-2015 06:26 PM:

I know its not worth much but in my opinion, if nobody in the cast can hear the dog and you know a guy is trying to strike or tree his dog off a Garmin then he should be minused those position points for cheating. Or scratched would be good too. All tracking/training devices should be left in the truck just like it used to be. Guys made it for years without them. Using GPS in hunts is just another way for guys to cheat. Way too much rule bending goes on in these hunts.

Posted by RLenhart on 05-21-2015 06:40 PM:

How about the guy that continually strikes somebody else's dog. I see that being a bigger problem than the Garmin's. I don't really see to many guys making calls off them. I think if your going to allow Garmins at all you might as well loosen up on using them to the point that when somebody say's "hey that's my dog you just struck" the judge can say "OK boys show me where your dog is". That could cut out allot of cheating right there because It can take a judge 2 or 3 drops sometimes to just start getting a handle on who's dog is who's IMO

Posted by JiM on 05-21-2015 07:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by RLenhart
How about the guy that continually strikes somebody else's dog. I see that being a bigger problem than the Garmin's.

Not sure why this would be a problem since we have a very clear rule that handles those who call someone else's dog. Rule 4(n), minus the appropriate points the first time and rule 6(k) scratch for the second offense. That takes care of that.

Now if you say the judge can't or won't make that call, well, that is just weak judging or incompetent judging and there is nothing any rule book or rule change can do to fix that.

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Posted by RLenhart on 05-21-2015 07:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Not sure why this would be a problem since we have a very clear rule that handles those who call someone else's dog. Rule 4(n), minus the appropriate points the first time and rule 6(k) scratch for the second offense. That takes care of that.

Now if you say the judge can't or won't make that call, well, that is just weak judging or incompetent judging and there is nothing any rule book or rule change can do to fix that.

Your probably right but I DO see more people getting away with that atleast on the 1st couple drops than I do people abusing the Garmin rule. JMO

Posted by Jackson87 on 05-21-2015 07:54 PM:

How long ago was it that all judges where non-hunting judges?

Posted by Carl Fox on 05-21-2015 08:37 PM:

Back to the orginal question i hunted in one hunt last year just trying to get a pup in on a coon race or two.

Three dog cast same thing happens guy says strike my dog but i could not hear any dog barking anywhere and i asked the judge can you here a dog barking anywhere and he says no i said well majority rules no strike but he says lets walk a little in that direction and when we had walked 500 yards or so the judge looked at his garmin and said strike my dog no dog could be heard anywhere now both hunters are claiming their dogs struck but i here nothing but two against one strike points are put on score card for both dogs.
we walk another quarter mile and i or two spectators said we had never heard the first bark.
My daughters dog that i was handling struck left handed and i said to each of the two other hunters do you here that dog barking and both said yes then i said strike Sam i thought that was the way you were suppose to do it well to make a long story short i scratched Sam and with drew him and they kept going with their hand held garmins and over two hours later returned said dogs had two up one tree.
This was the first hunt i had been in since the use of garmins came into effect so i was not up on the rules like i should have been and i was not expecting to win anything with a pup but lesson learned anyway.

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Posted by yadkintar on 05-21-2015 08:56 PM:

Here latley the cast I been on they rattle right off the leash and never shut up and never get over 10 yards apart I one dog does get away from the pack that's the only time they shut up when they are hitch hiking to them and that sorry stuff I am hunting Is right there with them you could pitch a dog in there anytime and nobody would know the difference lol!!

Posted by buck brush on 05-21-2015 09:28 PM:

when they started letting you use the Garmin's in the hunts they said there was no way a person could cheat using one. I guess they was wrong I said it then if there is a way they will do it.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 05-21-2015 09:47 PM:

There's a simple solution to all this. Still require a dog to be struck but do not value a dog just because it's opening it's mouth faster.

Every dog that gets struck award them the same strike points. All these problems would be solved.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 05-21-2015 10:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Here latley the cast I been on they rattle right off the leash and never shut up and never get over 10 yards apart I one dog does get away from the pack that's the only time they shut up when they are hitch hiking to them and that sorry stuff I am hunting Is right there with them you could pitch a dog in there anytime and nobody would know the difference lol!!

We must be hunting with same dogs

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Posted by GA DAWG on 05-21-2015 10:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by buck brush
when they started letting you use the Garmin's in the hunts they said there was no way a person could cheat using one. I guess they was wrong I said it then if there is a way they will do it.

How was they wrong? You cant strike or tree a dog unless the judge hears it. Garmin dont even play into it. Now they can try and cheat but they have always did that anyhow.

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Posted by Jeff Prince on 05-21-2015 10:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
There's a simple solution to all this. Still require a dog to be struck but do not value a dog just because it's opening it's mouth faster.

Every dog that gets struck award them the same strike points. All these problems would be solved.

I've seen this suggested several times almost always by people hunting tight mouth dogs. They're stricking in for 25 so wouldn't it be great if everyone did . These hounds are supposed to open on track with that rule change you'd see dogs that are getting more and more tight or silent.

A rule change I'd support is moving first tree to 150 . Last strike first tree =175 first strike second tree = 175 but more plus tree points win. Any scenario where a dog gets second tree and has more points than the dog that treed the coon is wrong imo

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Posted by Fire Archer on 05-21-2015 10:59 PM:

Guys use them to tree their dogs too. I know of one incident my buddy told me where all dogs were struck but went out of hearing. Guy looked at his tracker and said he heard his dog treeing. Then treed his dog. Judge said "are you sure you hear your dog treed". He said yes. On the way to the tree he told another cast member (my buddy) that he didn't necessarily know the dog was treed except for on the Garmin but knew she would be by the time they got there. This guy has had some well known stud dogs and has had a couple legendary females as well. Guess he is well known for this very trick too.

Posted by yadkintar on 05-21-2015 10:59 PM:

You can always tell when a $ kc hunter comes to a ukc hunt when they hide behind a tree to look at they're garmin lol !

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