UKC Forums - If you Judge in UKC hunts please read.

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-- If you Judge in UKC hunts please read. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928415262)

Posted by Yard Dog Joker on 04-13-2015 11:41 AM:

If you Judge in UKC hunts please read.

As a judge. Please make all calls. If someone is not satisfied with your call or decision then at that time they can ask for a cast vote. Otherwise what ever the judge called or ruled will be suffice. I dont know how many times I been in a UKC cast when the judge doesnt even make a call and ask me how I vote. How can I vote when the judge has never made a call to determine if there will be a question to vote on. Thanks for taking note.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 04-13-2015 12:03 PM:

Good advise, except the scoring of trees and calling timeout should always be a cast vote.

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Posted by Yard Dog Joker on 04-13-2015 12:42 PM:

Wrong Judge makes all calls.

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Posted by Yard Dog Joker on 04-13-2015 12:44 PM:

How can you vote on something when a question has not been called? Where in the rules do you see this?

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Posted by msinc on 04-13-2015 12:50 PM:

I think Mr. Duemmer is referring to the so called "majority rules" the scoring of trees and the calling time outs. Everything else is the judges call. I agree, a lot of judges are not quite doing their job. It seems like every time I enter a hunt other members of the cast suggest we break rules and when I ask them about it they all always act like they were clueless that it was not right. It is apparent that many handlers routinely break or don't follow the rules up to the point they will even try it with some one they don't know.

Edit: just last week a poster on here wrote about his cast "voting" or agreeing to call their dogs and burn up the rest of the hunt time leading them to the truck...the way it read the one dog got his first place win!!!

Posted by Slowpoke 2012 on 04-13-2015 01:01 PM:

IMO

Mostly, all the judge is there to do is write down the scores and keep track of time. Applying the right rule to the situation, and making calls is a small (but important) part of it. A "Cast Vote" is usually how things get decided.

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Posted by Yard Dog Joker on 04-13-2015 01:16 PM:

Please tell me in rules where you vote on a call that has not been made? In example scoring of tree. Judge calls decision to minus tree. If you disagree then you can ask for a vote.

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Posted by msinc on 04-13-2015 01:18 PM:

Re: IMO

quote:
Originally posted by Slowpoke 2012
Mostly, all the judge is there to do is write down the scores and keep track of time. Applying the right rule to the situation, and making calls is a small (but important) part of it. A "Cast Vote" is usually how things get decided.

I think this is exactly what the OP is referring to...this is the opposite of how it is supposed to be. Applying the rule to the situation is not small, it is what being a judge is all about. It is a judges call in all matters except the scoring of trees and calling time out. Votes are otherwise only when there is a question. If the judge is making the right calls then "questioned and called to vote" should be the "small part" of it not the usual way things get done. I understand and agree this is what happens a lot but it is not correct to do it this way.
We had a question called in a hunt this past weekend...the judge quoted the rule and the question was quickly withdrawn. In a cast with a weak or inexperienced judge the vote could have gone wrong and cheated everyone in the hunt, not just this cast.

Posted by RLenhart on 04-13-2015 01:25 PM:

Re: IMO

quote:
Originally posted by Slowpoke 2012
Mostly, all the judge is there to do is write down the scores and keep track of time. Applying the right rule to the situation, and making calls is a small (but important) part of it. A "Cast Vote" is usually how things get decided.

I Agree! I'll use myself as an example. I personally think I'm a pore judge and don't ever TRY to get the card in my hand but sometimes clubs are short on capable judges so when asked to, I do it to help carry the load. I'm not always sure how a call should go so if all the guys in a cast seem like fair players I look for input before making a possibly contraversial call. Would you really want a guy like myself throwing his weight around just because he's carrying the pencil?

Posted by msinc on 04-13-2015 01:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yard Dog Joker
Please tell me in rules where you vote on a call that has not been made? In example scoring of tree. Judge calls decision to minus tree. If you disagree then you can ask for a vote.

Not quite the way it works...dogs tree in a huge poplar...it has a few leaves but also is 150 feet tall and has some big branches that fork up a good ways. The guy winning the cast wants it circled because a coon could be there...the guy in second wants it minused for being "slick" so he can win. It is called a majority rule {vote.} Same with eyes, the guy not winning says it's "spider eyes". With time outs there has to be an agreed {voted} reason, dogs close to highway, dogs in different directions, etc. Time outs are the most abused of the nite hunt rules that I see. Had a guy that wanted to call time out this weekend immediately after the tree {5 minutes} was closed so we weren't burning hunt time. A weak judge would have swallowed it.

Edit: Majority rules and calling to a vote are done in an effort to have a better decision made in the woods close to the time it happened. The option or way it was done in the past was to take it to the MOH. The problem with that was always that he wasn't there and didn't see it. What one guy describes as a "little bird nest" that no coon could hide in might actually belong to a hawk and be almost as big as pickup truck bed...but the MOH didn't see it.

Posted by msinc on 04-13-2015 01:32 PM:

Re: Re: IMO

quote:
Originally posted by RLenhart
I Agree! I'll use myself as an example. I personally think I'm a pore judge and don't ever TRY to get the card in my hand but sometimes clubs are short on capable judges so when asked to, I do it to help carry the load. I'm not always sure how a call should go so if all the guys in a cast seem like fair players I look for input before making a possibly contraversial call. Would you really want a guy like myself throwing his weight around just because he's carrying the pencil?

You are definitely not a poor judge...getting input before making a call is smart not "throwing weight around." I would a whole lot rather have you or someone like you judge my cast than the ones that will push the edge of outright cheating any day. Doesn't sound like any rule bending or cheating goes on when you judge. What I call a poor judge makes cheating sound good and has the whole cast believing him.

Posted by Slowpoke 2012 on 04-13-2015 01:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yard Dog Joker
Please tell me in rules where you vote on a call that has not been made? In example scoring of tree. Judge calls decision to minus tree. If you disagree then you can ask for a vote.

Your right. The judge does need to make a call one way or the other. I've seen a judge not call something and it go straight to a vote plenty of times.

Posted by Charles Pullen on 04-13-2015 01:46 PM:

Very good advice here !!! Another good practice is when arriving at the tree tell the # of dogs to be handled . Seen a guy go about 40 yds to get his dog to bring it back to the tree cause the judge said " handle your dog " . Lol

Posted by bearhunter747 on 04-13-2015 01:50 PM:

You know I'm just getting started at this and I'm hunting a 9 year old dog trying to get a couple young kids to pick up better habits. Winning or loosing doesn't matter to me but the lessons learned are important... The "judge" should be in charge and make the calls as fair and honestly as possible per the honesty and integrity part of the rules. Having said that I'm trying to get the kids to realize that all throughout life there will always be someone in charge. Alot of hunting judges and handlers are all about the win and getting a dog titled and honesty and integrity are shunned. They don't respect the judge and want to argue about every call they make! Now where is the integrity in that? It ruins the hunt for the cast and burns up hunting time they could be getting plus points. Example got burned Saturday night by a crooked dog handler who had a dog out of pocket. We scored 2 trees. The handler tries to call judges dog treed. There was 2 dogs there,m mine and the judge's. Judge warns handler about calling someone else dog. We get to tree before it closes judge make a noise and handler says your scratchedfor calling at coon. Now we go to dog 3 split he had off game treed. He minus. Other dog not barking no where. Handler says I hear him, judge ask cast do you hear dog cast answer no. A house dog is barking handler says that's his dog judge says do ya hear a dog cast answer yes. We knew it house dog but we had to cast our dogs to a house dog. I guess what I'm learned from this is listen close to the question a pissed scratched judge ask and answer his question with more smarts. As my old dad says ya gotta be smarter than what you work with. You'd think some of the guys would want to help new people getting started and teach them some of the rules to make it fun for all but not all have an ounce of dignity or integrity!

Posted by Yard Dog Joker on 04-13-2015 03:53 PM:

Well I did my own homework. On page 63,64 of our rule book it explains it. Seems like the judge should make all calls even the scoring of tree. I stand corrected humbly. If the judge can make the call of decision to say if it's coon or off game then stands to reason he should make call of the scoring of tree seems very contradictory!

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Posted by JiM on 04-13-2015 04:00 PM:

Lotta wrong answers on this one.
The judge makes every call EXCEPT these three.
1 Scoring trees.
2 Calling timeout.
3 Deciding whether a dog has returned to a previously scored tree.
Those three are always a cast vote decision. Nobody has to ask for a vote because it is automatically a vote. The rules specifically state all cast members must vote in those three situations. The judge can vote first or last or anywhere in between, it don't matter.
Everything else is a judges decision with any cast member allowed to question it.
Of course the above only applies to a cast judged by a hunting judge but that covers the majority of casts these days.

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Posted by buck brush on 04-13-2015 04:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yard Dog Joker
Well I did my own homework. On page 63,64 of our rule book it explains it. Seems like the judge should make all calls even the scoring of tree. I stand corrected humbly. If the judge can make the call of decision to say if it's coon or off game then stands to reason he should make call of the scoring of tree seems very contradictory!

the judge makes the call if you do not agree with it then you can ask for a cast vote, the only thing you can not ask for a cast vote on is to break a rule.

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Posted by J I Allen on 04-13-2015 05:52 PM:

Jim, you beat me to it. I was going ask if he was referring to a hunting judge or a non-hunting judge. Non-hunting judge makes the decisions.

Posted by Yard Dog Joker on 04-13-2015 06:22 PM:

I see on page 63, 64 the judges rule. But the irony of allowing the judge to make the call if its a coon seen or off game but yet not allowed to make the call of the scoring of the tree is beyond me.

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Posted by JiM on 04-13-2015 06:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yard Dog Joker
I see on page 63, 64 the judges rule. But the irony of allowing the judge to make the call if its a coon seen or off game but yet not allowed to make the call of the scoring of the tree is beyond me.

I'm not sure if you are understanding the differences between hunting and non-hunting judges.
The reason a hunting judge is not given the authority to score trees alone is because the judge has a dog in the hunt. Do you really want your competitor deciding if your dog has a coon or not?
Hunting judges decide everything except the three situations I spoke of in my previous post. Of those three situations, UKC felt the fairest way to score those is by automatic cast vote. Everything else is scored by the judge with the ability to overturn the judge by a majority of the cast.

Posted by RLenhart on 04-13-2015 06:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yard Dog Joker
I see on page 63, 64 the judges rule. But the irony of allowing the judge to make the call if its a coon seen or off game but yet not allowed to make the call of the scoring of the tree is beyond me.

Well one thing you can run into with a less than honest hunting judge is If the judge has 1st or atleast 2nd tree he's going to be inclined to want to circle a slick tree but if he's got 3rd or 4th tree he could be inclined to minus it because the swing of points is in his favor, Your getting more minus points than he is. So making it a voting situation helps keep that from happening.

Posted by Yard Dog Joker on 04-13-2015 06:42 PM:

Jim read the following. Its from "Hunting Judges" in the rules.

a. Scoring a tree (plus, minus, or circle). This
does not include; 1) the decision on whether
or not the coon could cross out to an adjoining
tree or scoring multiple trees as one tree or; 2)
whether the game seen is a coon or off-game.
The Hunting Judge makes those decisions but
they may be questioned by a handler as outlined
below (5).

The rule says that the Cast votes on the scoring of the tree. But yet the Hunting judge makes the decision of a coon or off game is seen. This is irony of contradictory. The judge should make all calls even the scoring of the tree, if he can say if its coon or off game why cant he just make the call of the scoring of the tree to? Like any other call made a handler can ask for a vote. I understand this is the rule but makes no sense.

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Posted by Ky Show Girl on 04-14-2015 01:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I'm not sure if you are understanding the differences between hunting and non-hunting judges.
The reason a hunting judge is not given the authority to score trees alone is because the judge has a dog in the hunt. Do you really want your competitor deciding if your dog has a coon or not?
Hunting judges decide everything except the three situations I spoke of in my previous post. Of those three situations, UKC felt the fairest way to score those is by automatic cast vote. Everything else is scored by the judge with the ability to overturn the judge by a majority of the cast.

you lost me Jim,what does 6 say on Hunting Judges?pg 64

Posted by JiM on 04-14-2015 02:12 PM:

Being a woman, you were prolly born lost and I'm not brave enough to try and correct that.

Posted by Yard Dog Joker on 04-14-2015 02:40 PM:

Jim I reccommend a tracking collar for your ladies so you wont loose them no more!

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