UKC Forums - Another scoring question

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Posted by pabeagler on 03-15-2015 03:22 PM:

Another scoring question

In a 3 dog cast the dogs are cast dog a goes 35 yards and slams a tree and is struck and treed now dog b comes in and backs him handler strikes and trees dog b. dogs are only treed 35 yards from handlers. The five minutes starts to run. After about 3 minutes dog A comes over and greets handler then returns to tree .then he greets again right at the five minute mark and tree closes and dog returns to tree within seconds.he was not off the tree searching. He went directly to handler and back to tree . Should dog a be minused ? At the beginning of hunt the handler specified that dog may greet upon arrival at tree. The dog was minused strike and tree points. then he was minused tree points again for being at a closed tree where coon was seen .

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Posted by Ron Jackson on 03-15-2015 03:35 PM:

35 yards is too far to come off tree in my opinion. I would minus my own dog. Even pleasure hunting I would not be happy with that.

Posted by pabeagler on 03-15-2015 03:55 PM:

It was my dog and I did minus him.

Although he never comes out that far to greet me when I am walking into a tree in a normal hunting situation. But being we were close the whole time with lights and talking could have interfered a little, May be we as handlers could have backed up a little .

I am not disgruntled in any way. Just thinking that if this would happen again, maybe the situation could be handled a little differently.

__________________
Then peter said unto them, Repent, and be
baptized every one of you in the name of
jesus christ for the remission of sins , and ye
shall receive the gift of the holy ghost

Posted by rthompson on 03-15-2015 04:07 PM:

I wouldnt handle the situation different just the dog and make darn sure he didnt think thats was ok to do.

Posted by john Duemmer on 03-15-2015 04:18 PM:

Bad break but ya gotta take the minus, 35 yards is to far.
When i judge and the dogs are working or treein close i ask the handlers to kill the lights and hush up.
Teach that dog not to greet ya.

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Posted by buck brush on 03-15-2015 04:19 PM:

at 35 yards you should have told the cast to turn there lights off, a lot of times a dog that may leave a tree will not leave if he sees a light and also there are light broke mean dogs.

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Posted by RLenhart on 03-15-2015 05:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pabeagler
It was my dog and I did minus him.

Although he never comes out that far to greet me when I am walking into a tree in a normal hunting situation. But being we were close the whole time with lights and talking could have interfered a little, May be we as handlers could have backed up a little .

I am not disgruntled in any way. Just thinking that if this would happen again, maybe the situation could be handled a little differently.

I would say in that exact situation I would have minused myself to but I DO NOT understand what you were doing that close to that dogs tree for the whole 5min. Unless he just happened to run it into you the cast should never have been that close to the tree. You should have stopped a good 75-100 yrds away that's plenty close for everybody to hear they're dog and you to know what's going on in there.

Posted by Fisher13 on 03-15-2015 05:15 PM:

sounds more like interference to me... I don't see how you can minus a dog for greeting his handler who has been standing there for a whole 5 minutes. Leaving a tree to me means the dog LEFT the tree to go look some where else for a coon.

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Posted by pabeagler on 03-15-2015 05:39 PM:

RLenhart, we apparently walked right in under a lay up coon before we cast the dogs ! Distance on gamin was 33 yards in open timber to dogs when treed.

__________________
Then peter said unto them, Repent, and be
baptized every one of you in the name of
jesus christ for the remission of sins , and ye
shall receive the gift of the holy ghost

Posted by RLenhart on 03-15-2015 06:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pabeagler
RLenhart, we apparently walked right in under a lay up coon before we cast the dogs ! Distance on gamin was 33 yards in open timber to dogs when treed.

I thought it might have been something like that. Not much you can do when something like that happens except slip back out of there a little.

Posted by jculler8 on 03-15-2015 06:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rthompson
I wouldnt handle the situation different just the dog and make darn sure he didnt think thats was ok to do.

My dogs all tree harder when they see lights and people near a tree. You gotta train them by encouraging them while you are walking into a tree as a pup during training sessions.

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Posted by buck brush on 03-15-2015 07:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
sounds more like interference to me... I don't see how you can minus a dog for greeting his handler who has been standing there for a whole 5 minutes. Leaving a tree to me means the dog LEFT the tree to go look some where else for a coon.

that is why you need to read the rules and learn them, how could it be interference ???

Posted by msinc on 03-15-2015 08:18 PM:

Rule 11 {B} states; Dog should not be minused tree points if he comes back a short distance to meet handler if dog goes back in and trees satisfactorily.
Page 75 of "The Advisor" further addresses this issue at length, titled "Rule 8 and the I word."
This is one of those times when you truly need a judge with some integrity because it is open to interpretation just what "short" means. The article in "The Advisor" explains why an exact distance in feet is not given in the rules. Outwardly this seems like such a simple problem to solve...define short and call it a day, but it's just not that simple.
Personally, if I had a young dog that was treed for 3 minutes 35 yards away from a group of guys with lights and talking going on and he came straight to me and went straight back to resume treeing I wouldn't really feel that bad about it.
But, this is a nite hunt, so my thoughts on dogs coming back an "acceptable distance" would be more like when I can easily see the tree with the dogs in my light as I go in and he sees me coming then I think it's O.K. to leave and come to meet me...this would be something like 50 feet or less. In this case we are talking 35 yards {X's 3 for 105 feet} which is a little better than double. This is what the word meeting implies...I am heading towards him he comes to meet me. If he cannot see me why is he trying to meet me???
If you allow the distance to be greater than a point which the tree can be seen how would a judge know if the dog was truly coming in from the tree and not off the tree already milling around??? The judge should be the first one to arrive but I have seen a lot of dogs "side step" the judge to get to their owner/handler.
The sad part is that like a lot of judgement calls this one gets it fair share of abuse. When the dog coming back is winning the cast and judges dog is #2 "short distance" often gets redefined!!!

Posted by buck brush on 03-15-2015 08:37 PM:

ok this is something that happened in a hunt I was the judge, 3 dog cast 2 dogs start to tree none had been called treed a fight breaks out so we move up to see who is fighting they stop, one dog starts to tree and is called treed we are 20 t0 25 yards from tree the other 2 dogs are to the right working a track I ask them all to shut there lights off, the 5 is running the treed dog, it gets down off the tree and can be heard moving around searching on the ground I say I'm putting the 2 on her they all say she is MIN. she gets back up on the tree and starts to tree the 5 runs out she was on a den I 0 her points I told them that if we was not standing there that close we would have not known she was down off the tree, I would have just put the 2 on her as I did, now if she would have barked off the tree then I would have MIN. her.
at 30 yards I do not know if I would have MIN this mans dog or not since it went right back and started treeing I would have had to been there.

Posted by msinc on 03-16-2015 01:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by buck brush
ok this is something that happened in a hunt I was the judge, 3 dog cast 2 dogs start to tree none had been called treed a fight breaks out so we move up to see who is fighting they stop, one dog starts to tree and is called treed we are 20 t0 25 yards from tree the other 2 dogs are to the right working a track I ask them all to shut there lights off, the 5 is running the treed dog, it gets down off the tree and can be heard moving around searching on the ground I say I'm putting the 2 on her they all say she is MIN. she gets back up on the tree and starts to tree the 5 runs out she was on a den I 0 her points I told them that if we was not standing there that close we would have not known she was down off the tree, I would have just put the 2 on her as I did, now if she would have barked off the tree then I would have MIN. her.
at 30 yards I do not know if I would have MIN this mans dog or not since it went right back and started treeing I would have had to been there.

I would have scored the dog that treed the same way. I would not have minused the dog for leaving the tree. The fact is she went back and finished the job and the 2 minutes did not get her. Sometimes when you are too close like that you can hear what sounds like one thing but you cant see it so you cant act on it. One thing I always try to do if I am the judge is back the cast away as soon as possible if we are too close. In this case though you really couldn't because you were watching a mean dog/dogs.
I judged a hunt recently with something similar. I went in to the tree first and saw both dogs treed good. When one of the dogs saw my light he came to me. He saw I wasn't his owner and side stepped. He went a little to the left and then went back to the tree. The other handler was already calling for me to minus the first dog. I said, "lets just give it a minute" and I watched both dogs to make sure the first one went back and treed and also to make sure there was nothing going on at the tree that shouldn't have been. Kind of sounded a little funny when I was walking into them.
The second handler argued that the first dog should be minused for getting off the tree. I wouldn't do it because, 1. the handler said he would come back to him and 2. the dog went right back and treed, he just side stepped me when he realized I wasn't his owner.
I think when it comes to this situation the two most important things are that the dog is treeing to the judges satisfaction to start with and that if he leaves he goes back.

Posted by Fisher13 on 03-16-2015 05:03 AM:

What is the intent of the rule? IMO it is to minus a dog that trees and called as such. Then the dog leaves to start another track or tree, pulls to another dog, or something along those lines, not to punish a dog that greets his handler or a cast. If my memory serves me correctly.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-16-2015 12:35 PM:

35 feet is greeting, 35 yards is leaveing.
I think a reasonable standard would be..... the dog that greets his handler at 35 feet has in most cases shown the handler the correct tree. At 35 yards you have no clue which tree the dog was on.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 03-16-2015 12:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
35 feet is greeting, 35 yards is leaveing.
I think a reasonable standard would be..... the dog that greets his handler at 35 feet has in most cases shown the handler the correct tree. At 35 yards you have no clue which tree the dog was on.

That's a good point if you cant see the tree the dog was on it is probably far enough away to minused

__________________
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Posted by pabeagler on 03-16-2015 01:33 PM:

In my opinion we interfered with the dogs. Yes the dog came off the tree and approached the handler , but it immediately returned to tree. It was not down smelling around or anything like that. It was a good learning experience. And if a similar incident ever arises again. I will back out of the area and not be a distraction to the dogs.
The only thing that stings me in this situation is if I could have gotten plus points for this tree it might have been enough to get a win in the first nite ch class the dog was entered. Darn the bad luck !

__________________
Then peter said unto them, Repent, and be
baptized every one of you in the name of
jesus christ for the remission of sins , and ye
shall receive the gift of the holy ghost

Posted by groworg1 on 03-16-2015 04:55 PM:

bad deal just can't decide which side of the fence to be on I will say this if you talked stood around shined lights its as much your fault ! why weren't you at the tree when the 5 was up you should never wait till the 5 is up to move closer to a tree you should be at the tree when 5 is up ! rookie mistake ! been there done that and made plenty of rookie mistakes myself !

Posted by pabeagler on 03-16-2015 05:04 PM:

Groworg1, you might want to read it again. Dog treed 33 yds from where we turned them loose. My dog went 30 yards and picked the scent out of the air on a lay up coon. Worked a quick circle of the immediate area then treed 33 yards away from the group of handlers.i am figuring it was a lay up because there was a mouthy walker in the cast that never made a peep on track or tree !

__________________
Then peter said unto them, Repent, and be
baptized every one of you in the name of
jesus christ for the remission of sins , and ye
shall receive the gift of the holy ghost

Posted by groworg1 on 03-16-2015 06:15 PM:

yup read it the first time then the second time after edit and still believe your making rookie mistakes like as soon as dog b was struck a line should have been placed under it as its shut out on a's track and tree and it should have been determined if dogs were split or not before the first 5 was up and a second 5 should have been started on dog b when treed !

Posted by groworg1 on 03-16-2015 06:49 PM:

I will go farther (had a phone call) if in fact it was determined that b was on a's tree he would only be eligible for tree points after first 5 was up as for dog meeting off tree wouldn't have been a issue as you would have been moving and dog wouldn't have come back so far so yes rookie mistake and I've made worse mistakes trust me !

Posted by msinc on 03-16-2015 11:00 PM:

Rookie mistake???? They were 33 yards from the tree...a brisk pace will put you there in 20 seconds.

Here is a rookie mistake...Handler {trying to run the show}: "judge we need to get closer to the tree...judge we need to be right there when the tree is closed...judge we need to do this...judge we need to do that..." Judge {that don't play no B.S. with this type handler}: "put a leash on your dog, you are scratched."

Posted by groworg1 on 03-17-2015 12:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Rookie mistake???? They were 33 yards from the tree...a brisk pace will put you there in 20 seconds.

Here is a rookie mistake...Handler {trying to run the show}: "judge we need to get closer to the tree...judge we need to be right there when the tree is closed...judge we need to do this...judge we need to do that..." Judge {that don't play no B.S. with this type handler}: "put a leash on your dog, you are scratched."

another rookie mistake !

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