UKC Forums - Pigeon Chest

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-- Pigeon Chest (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928406145)

Posted by deschmidt27 on 01-26-2015 01:05 AM:

Pigeon Chest

Anyone have experience with a pup, with pigeon chest aka pigeon breast? I've got a 3 month old pup, photo below, that is my 7 year old son's dog. We have two pups, but this one is his favorite, and I'm struggling with having to talk him out of it!

Has anyone had a dog grow out of it, or success with surgery? Will they ever be 100%??? I want to make sure I understand the situation, before we make a decision.

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Posted by Autumn Clements on 01-26-2015 01:14 AM:

A friend of mine has a English with a chest like that. Not sure if she ever outgrew it but she seems to be doing fine she's about a year old now

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 01-26-2015 05:00 AM:

I have seen it in a few dogs as pups.Also have seen it a few times judging shows.It almost looks like they are missing a rib.
The couple I seen as pups weren't noticeable as adults unless you were looking for it.
Same with the few dogs I judged and only because I was of course examining them on the bench.
From a physical or structural point it appears to not be enough ribcage to protect the chest cavity.

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Posted by jesse on 01-26-2015 10:21 AM:

Had two there about nine now never bothered them a bit just looked odd heavy heavy clover bred.

Posted by bobbijo3456 on 01-26-2015 01:52 PM:

Pigeon Chest

It is caused by a Deformed Sternum and Coastal cartilages.Resulting in horizontal narrowing of the chest.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 01-26-2015 09:41 PM:

Re: Pigeon Chest

quote:
Originally posted by bobbijo3456
It is caused by a Deformed Sternum and Coastal cartilages.Resulting in horizontal narrowing of the chest.

John - the question is not what is it, but whether it's going to be an issue for the dog, physically? It's genetic, so I know I would never breed him, but will he be OK hunting?

Pat - the pups you saw as adults... did they appear to grow out of it??? Could they hunt ok, or did they have respiratory issues?

This pup is already super loud for a 3 month old, and so if you heard him, you would say he has a "set of lungs" on him. He is also very active, and it doesn't seem to be a problem for him. But from what I've read, it says it will reduce his lung capacity (the smaller rib cage will constrain their growth) and maybe even impact his heart development. This leads me to think as he gets older, it will become a problem as his heart and lungs may struggle to support his body size and activity.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 01-26-2015 11:36 PM:

BTT

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Posted by DocAcumen on 01-27-2015 12:16 AM:

Keep both of the pups....

As i am sure u do not want to pass on a pup that is not right!?
as u seem to be that way?

just hunt them....

and explain to your son that the pup he likes may not make it do to the problem......

vet should be a place to ask about what u don't know about the rib cage?

i would guess that if genetic? U would not want to pass on the trait?

explain all to son!!!!
he learns as well as u do!

WIN ..... WIN!

You and son get to learn and enjoy what ever pup has to offer, and if the worst was to happen? sorry to say.....

You can share the moments with him about how it all works....

Good, Bad, or otherwise.

Posted by micooner on 01-27-2015 12:53 AM:

would this be the same condition that some call chicken breasted??

Posted by deschmidt27 on 01-27-2015 01:15 AM:

I would assume yes, since when I first saw it, I thought it looked like a chicken craw...

DocAcumen - the issue is that we only have room for one adult dog, so one of these pups would have been sold (once we got them both started) and we would have kept the better of the two. And you are correct, I will not sell this one. So if he's not going to make it, we would probably have him put to sleep sooner than later, rather than allow my son to get even closer to him, before the inevitable. And therefore allow more time to devote to one pup.

I've explained the situation to my son, but I'd rather not have him watch the pup struggle or suffer, if that's what is going to happen. The question is, is that going to happen with this condition???

I've asked around for recommendations on vets, and waiting on a couple leads, since I'm new to the area.

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Posted by Redwood Hounds on 01-27-2015 02:11 AM:

I just had a pup pop up in one of my recent litters that has the same thing. He is 5 months old now. They say he is starting to look a little better, and doesn't seem to affect him in any way. But I too am very curious as how they do as adults, and why it popped up to begin with, when I know first had every dog in a 3 gen, plus the litters they were from, none had this issue.

Also this pup is heavy linebred, Clover breeding.

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Posted by DocAcumen on 01-27-2015 02:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
DocAcumen - the issue is that we only have room for one adult dog, so one of these pups would have been sold (once we got them both started) and we would have kept the better of the two. And you are correct, I will not sell this one. So if he's not going to make it, we would probably have him put to sleep sooner than later, rather than allow my son to get even closer to him, before the inevitable. And therefore allow more time to devote to one pup.

understood....

But, u never know do U? pup might be a good pup?
and to put it to sleep might be the right thing? If pup is in pain ect?

If not???? and son likes said pup?? as u say....
Might be good to keep pup? may not be good for breeding? if it is genetic? and pup is promising for hunting?

IDK maybe good to keep? and let son know all the ins and outs to how things work?

tell him how he cant be bred.... and that he may die young????

Prepare him for the things that happen as to why they do?????

just a simple thought , from a simple man!!!!!

Posted by Rocketman55 on 01-27-2015 05:50 AM:

Here is an adult photo of a dog I raised from a puppy that had a chest that looked something like the dog in your picture. I never knew what it was called, I simply could see he had an extra thick chest bone. To me he almost looked double chested as a puppy. As he grew into an adult hound the chest bone didn't seem so prevalent. This dog started like all my other pups, he went on to make a nice hound. He granded at 3 years of age and qualified for the world hunt the 3 years I tried to qualify him. He is now 9 coming 10 and he has no ill effects that I can tell from this condition that I seen as a pup. He can still tree every breath for hours, and the only thing I ever noticed was that he starts getting hoarse if left treed for two hours or more.

The one adverse effect from his condition (and you can see it in the pic) is that He needed a bigger opening in his dog box due to the extra depth of his chest, thus causing his front nipples to constantly rub against the bottom of the opening in his box causing his two front nipples to enlarge. The constant rubbing was from every time he went into or came out of his box. At least that is what I think caused it. I say that because after I moved him to a box with a bigger opening, the redness sort of went away but the two front nipples still remained large.

So maybe you might consider hanging on to him and then choose the best pup of the two after you get them started.

Just a thought, and I hope I have helped in some way!

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 01-27-2015 03:13 PM:

Dave - great insights, thank you! Your dog does appear to have a tall chest, but not the drastic drop between the chest and the waste (the pigeon or bird like shape). Are you saying he used to be that way as a pup, but the severity went away as he grew up? Did you ever do anything to treat it?

Thanks again!

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 01-27-2015 07:58 PM:

Re: Re: Pigeon Chest

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
John - the question is not what is it, but whether it's going to be an issue for the dog, physically? It's genetic, so I know I would never breed him, but will he be OK hunting?

Pat - the pups you saw as adults... did they appear to grow out of it??? Could they hunt ok, or did they have respiratory issues?

This pup is already super loud for a 3 month old, and so if you heard him, you would say he has a "set of lungs" on him. He is also very active, and it doesn't seem to be a problem for him. But from what I've read, it says it will reduce his lung capacity (the smaller rib cage will constrain their growth) and maybe even impact his heart development. This leads me to think as he gets older, it will become a problem as his heart and lungs may struggle to support his body size and activity.

Did not bother either dog I saw adults.The one as I said you would not even notice it now .Never seemed to bother either dogs hunting or treeing abilities either.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 01-27-2015 08:42 PM:

I've done some more research on-line (still waiting to hear on an appt with a vet) and it would appear that there are a couple sites (the first ones I went to) that describe this as gloom and doom with heart issues as well as respiratory issues. Since then, I've found several forums talking about dogs and people growing out of it, or at least not seemingly suffering from it.

Any more insights on anyone that has had a dog with this issue, or seen one, is appreciated!

Again, this pup is in a competition with a litter mate to see who stays at our kennel and who moves on. And we'll probably make that decision at around 8 months old. So this condition will be a factor in that decision, and/or how we handle it. For example, if he's going to make a coon dog, but doesn't appear to have the potential of the other pup, I may find him a new home, but have him fixed before we do so.

Thanks for any information, and the feedback so far!

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 01-27-2015 09:55 PM:

Hello David, the short answer to your question is YES. This dogs condition was much more severe as a puppy. As a matter of fact it looked very similar to yours. The key word here is "similar". Your pup may be just a bit more severe but not a lot. If memory serves me correctly, I didn't notice it being so obvious after the dog turned about two years old. But up through his first year of age it was much more noticeable than you see in that picture I posted. I think he was about 4 years old in that pic.

Good Luck with your research!!!

Posted by deschmidt27 on 01-30-2015 01:12 PM:

Anyone else experience this with a pup???

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Posted by Jim Kirk NC on 01-30-2015 05:26 PM:

Dave- I have a 10 year old English female that was born with this same trait. It did not bother her as far as performance or obviously longevity. As she got older and filled out the chest did not appear as noticeable. I personally would not be afraid to keep and hunt the pup.

I will try to post a picture of her in the next few days.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 01-30-2015 06:40 PM:

Thanks Jim!

Is that pound hunt, still this weekend?

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Posted by Chris.S on 01-30-2015 08:22 PM:

I've always called it a chicken brisket, I raised a few that displayed it as pups, all out grew it.

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Posted by Jim Kirk NC on 01-30-2015 08:26 PM:

Hi David it is tonight at 7

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Posted by Redwood Hounds on 06-06-2015 06:27 AM:

How did this pup turn out?

Posted by Redwood Hounds on 06-06-2015 06:27 AM:

How did this pup turn out?

Posted by buster34 on 06-06-2015 03:57 PM:

I have a young dog with this and it doesn't seem to bother him. Kind of wondered where it came from but he is clover bred so that would explain that.

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