UKC Forums - Compensation breeding question

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 01-18-2015 04:54 PM:

Compensation breeding question

Lots of folks including myself lean towards the theory of when making a cross, each mate involved would ideally compensate their strengths for the others weakness, while maintaining like positive qualities as well. The hope is to ultimately come away with offspring which are more balanced and even better than their sire & dam.

My question is how often is this actually successful? If you have had success with this mindset, who were some of these offspring & what was the breeding behind the individuals involved in the cross?

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Posted by HILLBILLYS BLU on 01-18-2015 05:37 PM:

Well Vic..... Lol!! You and I have talked about this before..... I believe it has been done successfully more time's than some realize, trying to achieve balance... Then there has been some crosses made knowing the male and female has the same weaknesses, and hope for a better outcome.(don't understand that one). Then sometimes I think a cross doesn't show, until a generation or two later....I've heard the old timers say, they had track dogs, that would tree, now I think as a whole we have more tree dogs that will track.... It had to come from somewhere...... Just my two cents.

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 01-19-2015 03:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HILLBILLY'S BLU
Well Vic..... Lol!! You and I have talked about this before..... I believe it has been done successfully more time's than some realize, trying to achieve balance... Then there has been some crosses made knowing the male and female has the same weaknesses, and hope for a better outcome.(don't understand that one). Then sometimes I think a cross doesn't show, until a generation or two later....I've heard the old timers say, they had track dogs, that would tree, now I think as a whole we have more tree dogs that will track.... It had to come from somewhere...... Just my two cents.

Thank you for your thoughts Bill. I would guess the failures probably outnumber the successes, but I do agree we have more of the right kind of tree dog these days than we did years ago. I think there is a fine line between too much of something & having just the right amount. We all are also very well aware that just because an individual hound may possess a desired trait, it isn't always passed on to the offspring. I guess the bottom line is any cross is a crap shoot at best. Every now & again the stars line up & some nice hounds that are a notch or two above common result from a cross.

I am particularly interested in instances of outcross success.

Posted by Grover on 01-19-2015 04:13 PM:

breeding

Hi Vic,
interesting topic,

I remember a clever older houndsman telling me one time.

"Breeding hounds isn't like mixing paint ,,,,,Just because you mix red paint with white Paint doesn't mean you will always get pink.""

Been a long time since I heard that,,,but never forgot it...

Dave

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 01-27-2015 12:15 PM:

BTT

Back up one more time!

Looking for that needle in a haystack

Posted by Chiggers on 01-27-2015 01:03 PM:

Of course it works, it may not produce a perfect dog, but it works, If you breed a no track dog to a good track dog you are not going to get a poodle. You are going to get what you breed. Common sense would tell some one if they don't have enough track power they need to breed to a better track dog and if they don't have enough tree power they need to breed to more tree power, if your dog don't have enough mouth breed to a louder dog. Would be better to breed to balanced dogs but if you are going to breed by all means try to breed to the dog thats going to help you.

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Posted by everett on 01-27-2015 03:48 PM:

Problem as I see it

The problem with this mind set is all emphasis is placed on the stud dog to make improvements, how many times in all honesty do you see a stud owner run a add that reads looking for females that are strong in such a such area so breedings on my stud will be improved results, Rarley if ever, they would be afraid that the stud would get a bad rap on being week in a particular area and no one would breed, when in fact in my experience the female is 60% responsible for the out come, call a stud owner and few will turn a female down, back her up boys, this should be a great cross, to me common sense is not to breed male or female that has a weak fault, I figure that out before I put to much time in them and cul, if you know what I mean.....Gerald

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Posted by pamjohnson on 01-27-2015 06:03 PM:

gerald

i never saw a female i couldn't find fault with. hunting or reproducing. regardless if i own them or someone else.
maybe not a horrible fault but some faults none the less.

Posted by Vic Stoll on 01-27-2015 06:15 PM:

Re: Problem as I see it

quote:
Originally posted by everett
The problem with this mind set is all emphasis is placed on the stud dog to make improvements, how many times in all honesty do you see a stud owner run a add that reads looking for females that are strong in such a such area so breedings on my stud will be improved results, Rarley if ever, they would be afraid that the stud would get a bad rap on being week in a particular area and no one would breed, when in fact in my experience the female is 60% responsible for the out come, call a stud owner and few will turn a female down, back her up boys, this should be a great cross, to me common sense is not to breed male or female that has a weak fault, I figure that out before I put to much time in them and cul, if you know what I mean.....Gerald

Gerald, what I am talking about has nothing to do with placing all the emphasis on a stud dog, or a female dog for that matter. I probably should have been a little more clear in my question, but I mainly want to know of examples of when this has been done successfully with two good coon treeing dogs, & what the breeding behind those dogs was.

Here is an example:

Say both Male & Female are well above average coon treeing dogs.

Male excels in natural independence, is alone the majority of the time, & doesn't have leave the zip code to be alone. Male has has excellent layup ability, quick one bark locating dog with excellent accuracy, lower end strike dog, but has an average mouth & just a tick above average track speed. Is a hard going dog that goes hunting great alone or with company.

Female has an outstanding mouth, well above average track speed, quick strike dog. Female is a quick one bark locating dog with excellent accuracy that split trees regularly, but is with other dogs more often than not. Female is lacking layup ability, goes hunting great alone or with company, but would like to see her go a little harder.

If crossing the male & female from the example above, the hope would be to come away with pups which are more balanced than either parent for the majority of the litter.

The like positive traits maintained: Quick one bark locators w/excellent accuracy, go hunting good alone or with company.

Traits taken from both parents (compensating one another's weakness) to add desired balance: Well above average mouths, natural independence, layup ability, well above average track speed, quick strike dogs, that are hard going.

I hope this example makes a little sense

Thank you everyone for your input! Keep it coming!

Posted by Vic Stoll on 01-27-2015 06:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chiggers
Of course it works, it may not produce a perfect dog, but it works, If you breed a no track dog to a good track dog you are not going to get a poodle. You are going to get what you breed. Common sense would tell some one if they don't have enough track power they need to breed to a better track dog and if they don't have enough tree power they need to breed to more tree power, if your dog don't have enough mouth breed to a louder dog. Would be better to breed to balanced dogs but if you are going to breed by all means try to breed to the dog thats going to help you.

Chiggers, what you list is the theory we all subscribe to, when have you witnessed it be successful?

Posted by Chiggers on 01-27-2015 09:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Vic Stoll
Chiggers, what you list is the theory we all subscribe to, when have you witnessed it be successful?

It works every time to different degrees, I don't see how it could even be called a theory, I would consider it fact. The dogs we all hunt prove it. I don't like to get into discussions because you run the risk of making People mad, and I could care less what anyone wants to breed or hunt, I just worry about myself, but I tell you, you can breed a sorry track dog into a very good track dog, or a sorry tree dog into a very good tree dog, in a surprisingly short period of time. You can hit the lottery and quit hunting and decide you need a guard dog, you can take that good tree dog and breed it into a pretty german shepard guard dog, then you can make bad investments and decide you don't need a guard dog anymore because you are broke, you decide you need a lap dog, you can breed that guard dog into a lap dog, then your grand kids decide they want to start coon hunting, you can take that lap dog and breed it back into a good coon dog. All that would take less time than most would think.

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Posted by Chiggers on 01-27-2015 11:39 PM:

Oscar

Here is my Buddy Oscar

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Posted by Chiggers on 01-27-2015 11:52 PM:

Oscar is 10 years old, he is my Buddy, he runs around and visits Neighbors but when he sees my truck coming he comes running as hard as he can, I get him treats at Walmart, I let him in and give him a treat and he likes to sleep on my jacket, The blood running through Oscars veins carries the blood of Generations of dogs I have walked thousands of miles behind and treed thousands of coons with, his Great Aunt Won an RQE in Elizabethtown Ky with 750 plus points and no minus. Oscars Gramma got bred by a Shitsu, I got rid of the pups but couldn't let one little fluffy female go, I bred her back to her daddy, a registered Shitsu and got Oscar, 2 generations back Oscars Kin were hard hunting coondogs that I had bred for 7 generations.. I bred Oscar to a Beagle once and have Ozzie out of that cross, Ozzie is a pretty good rabbit dog.

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Posted by Ron Jackson on 01-28-2015 12:24 AM:

Hey Perry! You telling us a story? Never mind, I don't think even you could make that up! Glad to hear your up and running!

Posted by Mad-Dog on 01-28-2015 01:08 AM:

Breeding

I am probably going to start some rock throwing with my views on this subject. I would never breed based on compensation only, based on the first generation! I breed on complimentary bloodlines, parents, grand parents, and great grand parents all possessing the SAME desired traits. In order to breed this way you have to broaden your search, hunting for different lines, this is not done in a few weekends it takes years.

Correct me if my understanding of compensation is wrong. If you breed a male with a bawl mouth on track and tree to a female that is chop mouth on track and tree you will get bawl mouth track dogs and chop mouth tree dogs, or maybe chop mouth track dogs that bawl on tree or some that will bawl all the way or those that take after the female's background and be chop all the way. Any one of these pups might make a top hound, but what are they going to reproduce?

I am not saying breed based on papers, I am saying breed coon dog to coon dog if they compliment each other by having the SAME desired traits. I read this somewhere "You can't keep breeding the same two dogs together and expect to get something different".........Tim

Posted by everett on 01-28-2015 01:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chiggers
Of course it works, it may not produce a perfect dog, but it works, If you breed a no track dog to a good track dog you are not going to get a poodle. You are going to get what you breed. Common sense would tell some one if they don't have enough track power they need to breed to a better track dog and if they don't have enough tree power they need to breed to more tree power, if your dog don't have enough mouth breed to a louder dog. Would be better to breed to balanced dogs but if you are going to breed by all means try to breed to the dog thats going to help you.

I was referring to the mind set that if you lack track power breed to track power and the same with the tree, why breed a hound that is weak in major areas, everyone thinks, we'll just breed it to a better track/tree dog and that will fix it, who to say it will go on the positive direction, just as good a chance it will bring the pups down in those areas than it will improve, after all breeding is suppose to be about getting better, if a female is a weak tree dog and you breed her to mr. Tree himself the pups probably won't meet the level the sire is on in that department , so breeding to REPRODUCE , just went out the window, producing is one element Reproducing is another, the breed over the years has been flooded with producers, but few Reproducers, in 2014 I culled 4 hounds all that would run and tree coons, but just had wholes that didn't need to be past on, some where down the line traits good and bad are coming back out later on..... Gerald

Posted by Vic Stoll on 01-28-2015 04:03 AM:

Re: Breeding

quote:
Originally posted by Mad-Dog
I am probably going to start some rock throwing with my views on this subject. I would never breed based on compensation only, based on the first generation! I breed on complimentary bloodlines, parents, grand parents, and great grand parents all possessing the SAME desired traits. In order to breed this way you have to broaden your search, hunting for different lines, this is not done in a few weekends it takes years.

Correct me if my understanding of compensation is wrong. If you breed a male with a bawl mouth on track and tree to a female that is chop mouth on track and tree you will get bawl mouth track dogs and chop mouth tree dogs, or maybe chop mouth track dogs that bawl on tree or some that will bawl all the way or those that take after the female's background and be chop all the way. Any one of these pups might make a top hound, but what are they going to reproduce?

I am not saying breed based on papers, I am saying breed coon dog to coon dog if they compliment each other by having the SAME desired traits. I read this somewhere "You can't keep breeding the same two dogs together and expect to get something different".........Tim

Tim, thank you for your input.

Every dog out there has strengths and weaknesses, whether the folks that own them choose to acknowledge them or not. Why double up on a weak area in two dogs, even if they are above average coon treeing dogs? I'm not talking about trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, I'm talking more about coming away with as close to the total package as possible.

Posted by wakenda creek b on 01-28-2015 06:40 AM:

I think when you make a cross like in your example more pups then not will be a good mix of both parents. Now that being said Ive seen litters where the ones that look like the mom took more after her and the ones that look like the dad took more after him. I haven't raised a lot of litters but just something Ive observed. I had a female out of a certain line of dogs, she was 100% bred that line. I asked the older fella what crossed good on his line of dogs and he told me a cross that couldn't go wrong, he even gave me a deposit on 2 pups. I made the cross and they were about as good looking as pups as you could ask for, I MEAN SHARP. They didn't have any hustle in them, wouldn't bark on track and just lazy as hell. I didn't keep any of them for long but I don't think the litter turned out. The dog I bred to was #1 on the producers list for a long time. I just don't think it mixed good.

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 01-28-2015 12:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wakenda creek b
I think when you make a cross like in your example more pups then not will be a good mix of both parents. Now that being said Ive seen litters where the ones that look like the mom took more after her and the ones that look like the dad took more after him. I haven't raised a lot of litters but just something Ive observed. I had a female out of a certain line of dogs, she was 100% bred that line. I asked the older fella what crossed good on his line of dogs and he told me a cross that couldn't go wrong, he even gave me a deposit on 2 pups. I made the cross and they were about as good looking as pups as you could ask for, I MEAN SHARP. They didn't have any hustle in them, wouldn't bark on track and just lazy as hell. I didn't keep any of them for long but I don't think the litter turned out. The dog I bred to was #1 on the producers list for a long time. I just don't think it mixed good.

Thank you Brian for your input.

I think your experience you shared has been shared by numerous folks (including myself) on more than one occasion. Maybe a better way to look at it would be to ask what strains, or individuals within those strains mingled very favorably with individuals from another strain?

I'm just as interested in learning about crosses that didn't click well as I am learning about ones that did. Not every pup out of every cross is exceptional like sometimes is portrayed on this fine message board. Many folks will not share those negative experiences, or acknowledge and share the weak areas of their male/female.

Posted by Tom Jones on 01-28-2015 04:58 PM:

howdy Stoll

you already know the real answer. If anybody had it figured out how to get the needle in a haystack type of dog then we wouldn't be using the term right? we would basically all have a feather up our rear side and be hunting real top dogs.............yes real ones, not the internet Charlie manson type that only exist in wonderland

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 01-28-2015 05:11 PM:

Re: howdy Stoll

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
you already know the real answer. If anybody had it figured out how to get the needle in a haystack type of dog then we wouldn't be using the term right? we would basically all have a feather up our rear side and be hunting real top dogs.............yes real ones, not the internet Charlie manson type that only exist in wonderland

Dang it Jones! You sure know how to piss in a feller's cheerios! LOL

Just chasing after several examples of when someone crossed two above average individuals, & came away with some of the offspring which had the best from both the sire & dam. Of course, this whole subject eventually evolves around to the human "interpretation" factor of what is good, or what is successful. That's a whole other can of worms

Maybe what Chris Briner referred to above is more realistic. Concentrating on one trait vs. multiple traits may yield better, or more consistent results.

Posted by hat creek mac on 01-28-2015 06:41 PM:

Re: howdy Stoll

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
you already know the real answer. If anybody had it figured out how to get the needle in a haystack type of dog then we wouldn't be using the term right? we would basically all have a feather up our rear side and be hunting real top dogs.............yes real ones, not the internet Charlie manson type that only exist in wonderland

Agreed!

I totally understand the question and the thinking behind it. If you have a really nice dog that is maybe just a touch weak in an area, you breed to a really nice dog that is particularly strong in that area. People have done this for years.

It was then turned into breeding a female that won't tree to a TREE DOG male. Sadly enough, there have been some good dogs that came from such crosses. The guys that think they have it all figured out rarely do. A big name breeder told me once that if you raised pups that tree early, they would sell themselves. It took him about 20 years to breed himself into a corner. His dogs now are for the most part lazy hunters that are not very accurate. There are a few others in our breed that think they have the market cornered on breeding top hounds. Their bloodline continues to lose its accuracy by breeding "top tree dogs" and not coon treers.

Tell me the breed as a whole isn't lazier today than it was 20 years ago.

To each his own. Breed what you like and hunt what you like. If those of us that couldn't spell were culled and not allowed to reproduce, there wouldn't be very many kids that belonged to coonhunters LOL

There are SO many variables in breeding working dogs. That is what makes it so hard to breed THE ONE. Some crosses I have made over the years that I thought couldn't miss, in fact did. You just never know.

Posted by Tom Jones on 01-28-2015 09:25 PM:

Re: Oscar

quote:
Originally posted by Chiggers
Here is my Buddy Oscar

are you saying Oscar is 25% bluetick? ps: Oscars gramma wasn't picky at all and that lil shitzu must of been a determined lil fella

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Posted by hat creek mac on 01-28-2015 11:40 PM:

Tom I saw a Doberman female have pups from a male poodle one time! Where there's a will there's a way! LOL

Posted by 8hawg on 01-29-2015 01:05 AM:

Vic, interesting discussion, I have been thinking a lot about your thread here. I realized I been down this road before with these types of discussions. For that reason I' m out. I hope you get the info your looking for.

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