UKC Forums - Traits to consider before breeding a female

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Posted by Fisher13 on 10-22-2014 02:02 PM:

Traits to consider before breeding a female

For you guys that have been breeding for a little while, what are some requirements or things you need to see from a female before you decide to breed.

In another words I have a personal female that I will never sell, but like a lot of guys I am concerned that some of my emotional attachment, might have me judging my dog with a bit of rose colored glasses. I thought if you guys could help me come up with a list of traits, I may be able to look at things more objectively.

Another thing as far as can tell she holds many of characteristics that her line of dogs is known for, even though she isn't perfect, her strengths and weaknesses seem to match up with her line. To me this is a positive, however I still want to take a step back and make sure I'm a 100 percent before moving forward.

Posted by John Carroll on 10-22-2014 02:19 PM:

Emotional attachment has no place in breeding dogs. You are wise to consider the fact that you might be a little blind to your own hound's worthiness.

Do you have ahunting buddy who is honest enough to tell you his take on your gyp?

The benchmark for breeding a female is performance, over and above everything else.

If she won't tree real live coons the way I like them to be treed I won't breed her.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 10-22-2014 02:44 PM:

I developed my own way to evaluate dogs as breeding stock. It is based on a similar design to what Mr. John Wick printed in his book.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 10-22-2014 02:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
I developed my own way to evaluate dogs as breeding stock. It is based on a similar design to what Mr. John Wick printed in his book.

Ok thanks Larry, I'll dust the old book off the shelf and reference it once again. Not sure why I didn't think of that.

Posted by Fisher13 on 10-22-2014 03:28 PM:

Larry,
What I gathered from John Wicks book was,

Desire
Intelligence
Toughness
Attitude

These are fairly general, and I think toughness or grit, as a 3rd top trait is a bit high in my book.

I feel that my list would go something like this

Desire or Heart
Intelligence
Conformation and Health
Natural Ability
Bidable / Temperament
Independence
Lockdown Tree dog
Accuracy
Speed or Quickness
Mouth
Looks

What do you guys think?

Posted by JiM on 10-22-2014 03:30 PM:

Mouth and disposition. These are two things I have decided for myself that are for sure passed on to a much greater degree than other traits.

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Posted by HOBO on 10-22-2014 03:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13

I feel that my list would go something like this

Desire or Heart
Intelligence
Conformation and Health
Natural Ability
Bidable / Temperament
Independence
Lockdown Tree dog
Accuracy
Speed or Quickness
Mouth
Looks

What do you guys think?

I think the intelligence should be the number one thing to consider when breeding ANY dog. They can have all the natural ability in the world but if they don't have the brains to go with that ability then its all wasted. The brains should help with the accuracy issue as well. It also falls in line with the speed or quickness one as well, they have to have the brains to know which way to take the track and know how to move it on out.

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Posted by chris50 on 10-22-2014 04:16 PM:

Breeding

One thing to consider, can I sell or find good homes.
Pups don,t always get a fair shake, do to not being able to find homes. If they sit, and don,t get out, they will be brain dead anyway, no matter who or how great there parents were. For what it worth.

Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-22-2014 04:26 PM:

What I have learned is this simple:

If you don't want another one JUST LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE.....don't breed what you have.

All this malarky about "bettering the breed" is dreaming....if all of us would be a whole lot more careful in our breeding selection, there would be far less culls in the world

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Posted by CHEWBACH on 10-22-2014 04:37 PM:

ability

I hunt a lot of young dogs! I dont teach nor train them to run and tree. that natural ability should kick in when hunted. that's what you should look for in sire and dam! every thing else will fall in line. jmo! oak ridge u got that correct!

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 10-22-2014 04:54 PM:

I'm Curious

I'm curious... why would your consideration of the female (traits or otherwise) be any different than for a male? Did you mean to differentiate between a female and a male, or was it just because it's a female that you have in mind?

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Posted by cameronk on 10-22-2014 05:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
What I have learned is this simple:

If you don't want another one JUST LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE.....don't breed what you have.

All this malarky about "bettering the breed" is dreaming....if all of us would be a whole lot more careful in our breeding selection, there would be far less culls in the world

Well said! There are too many people raising pups these days that really have no business breeding hounds.

Happens all too often that someone has a female Walker, English, or whatever and finds some guy nearby with a male of the same breed and he hauls his female over to get bred. These are usually the individuals that are out to fatten their wallets rather than better the breed. Funny these "backyard breeders" usually only raise one litter of pups and get out of the breeding business. They learn pretty fast they aren't going to get rich selling coon dog pups!

Posted by john Duemmer on 10-22-2014 05:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
What I have learned is this simple:

If you don't want another one JUST LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE.....don't breed what you have.

All this malarky about "bettering the breed" is dreaming....if all of us would be a whole lot more careful in our breeding selection, there would be far less culls in the world

Advise doesnt come any better than this.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 10-22-2014 06:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
What I have learned is this simple:

If you don't want another one JUST LIKE WHAT YOU HAVE.....don't breed what you have.

All this malarky about "bettering the breed" is dreaming....if all of us would be a whole lot more careful in our breeding selection, there would be far less culls in the world

Joe I agree but I think a lot of guys with personal females that they decide to breed may be a little biased in there judgement. Yes I like what I have but is she perfect no, but she is better then most I have hunted with in my opinion and if not better she can hang with them. There are somethings I would like to improve on, but she meets most of the requirements on my list. I would feel a lot more comfortable training a pup out of her, then buying a pup based on pedigree. This is my main motivation for thinking about breeding her on the other hand there are some traits that I wish to improve on.

Posted by Fisher13 on 10-22-2014 06:40 PM:

Re: I'm Curious

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
I'm curious... why would your consideration of the female (traits or otherwise) be any different than for a male? Did you mean to differentiate between a female and a male, or was it just because it's a female that you have in mind?

I was mainly referencing the female, because I personally feel that the female typically has more of an influence then what is traditionally perceived. In another words a good cross starts with the mother.

Posted by blackflagginit on 10-22-2014 06:50 PM:

I never bred any dogs I owned very much, mostly because I never liked raising pups all that much. that being said, I did raise a few litters over the years.

my personal opinion is that less than 1% of male dogs have any business ever covering a female..........and only the top 10% of females ever have any business being covered by one..........and imo that's true no matter what livestock your breeding from a breed improvement standpoint.

I raised 2 litters from my old racket female because she was one of the finest examples of both ability and conformation I had ever seen. that's still true to this day.

I raised 2 litters (both from the same sire) off of Duel Grand Boughtons Red Ruby because she at the very least tied Racket for that title...

racket ran the small (barely made breed height) side and Ruby ran the high side (was actually a little over breed standard for height)..........racket was a far better over all coondog, however ruby was and is to this day the best I ever saw on frozen ground or in ice and snow.

I raised 1 litter off of NTCH Ozarks rebel battle cry because she was a total natural from the world go and pretty talented in her on right. we hunted over 300 nights together the first year I had her, and I hunted her totally alone. before that she had had less that 10 nights in the woods her entire life...she was my all time favorite hound with a .22 rifle to this day. a true lay up artist.

in over 30yrs now, that's my total list of litters bred, other than one female I was partners with chip wisecup. we raised one litter out of her as well.

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Posted by NJB6 on 10-22-2014 06:57 PM:

I have coonhunted for twenty years. I never had a female that I thought was good enough to breed.I don't know if I am too stupid or too smart.

Posted by Night Shift on 10-22-2014 07:08 PM:

What are the qualities you are wanting to improve on. I think this plays a big part in breeding if the bad quality is aggressive behavior I would never breed just my opinion.

Posted by Fisher13 on 10-22-2014 07:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit
I never bred any dogs I owned very much, mostly because I never liked raising pups all that much. that being said, I did raise a few litters over the years.

my personal opinion is that less than 1% of male dogs have any business ever covering a female..........and only the top 10% of females ever have any business being covered by one..........and imo that's true no matter what livestock your breeding from a breed improvement standpoint.

I raised 2 litters from my old racket female because she was one of the finest examples of both ability and conformation I had ever seen. that's still true to this day.

I raised 2 litters (both from the same sire) off of Duel Grand Boughtons Red Ruby because she at the very least tied Racket for that title...

racket ran the small (barely made breed height) side and Ruby ran the high side (was actually a little over breed standard for height)..........racket was a far better over all coondog, however ruby was and is to this day the best I ever saw on frozen ground or in ice and snow.

I raised 1 litter off of NTCH Ozarks rebel battle cry because she was a total natural from the world go and pretty talented in her on right. we hunted over 300 nights together the first year I had her, and I hunted her totally alone. before that she had had less that 10 nights in the woods her entire life...she was my all time favorite hound with a .22 rifle to this day. a true lay up artist.

in over 30yrs now, that's my total list of litters bred, other than one female I was partners with chip wisecup. we raised one litter out of her as well.

From a training standpoint, I almost feel like I shouldn't breed her, I have yet to have a pup I wasn't able to get to tree coons and find a hunter that was tickled to death with them. That said I have culled a couple before I did anything with them.
Anyways my point is I turn down pups all the time that guys are trying to give to me because they know I will hunt them, and some of them are pups I would like to hunt but realize I Just don't have the time do so. So part of me feels that I could better serve the breed by just training other people's crosses and giving feedback. On the other hand I wouldn't mind make a cross for myself unfortunately it seems the last thing we need is more pups.
Ata risk of derailing this thread I will say this, I think the best thing that would serve ours breeds and community is a better education of training and psychology of dogs. John Wick is the only writer I know of in our community that openly engages some of our misguided traditional techniques. I wish more articles and essays were in the magazine's and more people on these forums educating and helping people improve there training programs.
The greater understanding a hunter has of dogs I think the greater chance he will make better breeding decisions.

Posted by chip johnson on 10-22-2014 07:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cameronk
Well said! There are too many people raising pups these days that really have no business breeding hounds.

Happens all too often that someone has a female Walker, English, or whatever and finds some guy nearby with a male of the same breed and he hauls his female over to get bred. These are usually the individuals that are out to fatten their wallets rather than better the breed. Funny these "backyard breeders" usually only raise one litter of pups and get out of the breeding business. They learn pretty fast they aren't going to get rich selling coon dog pups!

are you saying that the guy that runs his female halfway across the country to breed to the big name stud that he probably never hunted with is a better breeder

Posted by jmart on 10-22-2014 08:03 PM:

Breed what you hunt, hunt what you breed! Works for me

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Posted by Fisher13 on 10-22-2014 08:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Night Shift
What are the qualities you are wanting to improve on. I think this plays a big part in breeding if the bad quality is aggressive behavior I would never breed just my opinion.

I would like to improve on her track speed, she is a dead loner so she can win with out being the fastest dog, but to me this is the biggest area of need. She could use some improvement in her track mouth, but ive certainly heard worst.

She also was a bit quirky in a public setting as a pup, but has seem to grow out of most of those issues.
She is fine around the house, and knows and loves all my friends and family, but is a bit cautious around strangers.
This is a concern for me, it seems to me that a lot guys that don't understand dogs, will right of a quirky pup before they even have a chance to display there talent. However to me it's a lot easier to take a dog to tractor supply or a picnic to work on a pups socializing skills then it is to teach them to tree a coon. She was treeing drags at 3 months and treed her first wild coon at 7 months. That was with limited work, I had another pup at the time I was focusing on. I was actually trying to stall her, to insure I wouldn't burn her out. In hindsight I wish I would have pounded her, I'm sure she would be closed to being finished by now if I would have.

She has a ton of desire, leaves on a run and comes on a run, she hates being pulled from a track or tree.

She is smart, I can take her jogging with out a lead,sits,heals,recalls on command, she hunts on command, is nuts over coon,straight, will tell on other dogs.

She has ability, she has more nose power then is needed, accurate, plenty of coon sense, followed water naturally at a young age, will split all night long and hold pressure. Looks her best in the dead of winter. She either has a coon or a den almost every time. Occasionally she will get hung up but she is just turning 2.

She is fairly biddable, she can be hard headed about somethings like being pulled off a track, or going hunting when she knows the coon that she just treed is in the truck.
She thinks for herself, but loves to work.

She is a little small, but is put together well, good feet, good hips, good looks, long legged, nice ears and head.
The vet said when she was a puppy that she had a slight underbite I believe, I guess I would need to consider that as well. I looked a few months back and didn't think it was very noticeable but my eye is untrained.

She has won 2 out of the 3 hunts I put her in this fall so far.
Treeing the only coons seen in both casts. However she did have 4th strike every time, but on the other hand had all her own 1st. So I guess you could say she isn't a real flashy dog, but a nice pleasure dog that can win hunts because she just does her own thing and has a knack for treeing coon.

I like her a lot, but my buddy and I both agreed she could use more track speed and a bigger mouth. I do like her mouth, especially when she comes trees, but it could be bigger.

If I decide to breed her, I think I want to breed her to a stud that shares some common ancestry who is throwing very fast dogs, with lots of smarts and drive, but is also very loud for his size.

Posted by Fisher13 on 10-22-2014 08:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by NJB6
I have coonhunted for twenty years. I never had a female that I thought was good enough to breed.I don't know if I am too stupid or too smart.

Haha this is a great post very thought provoking.

Posted by Fisher13 on 10-22-2014 08:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by chip johnson
are you saying that the guy that runs his female halfway across the country to breed to the big name stud that he probably never hunted with is a better breeder

Chip your gonna derail my thread with this comment

Posted by jmart on 10-22-2014 08:25 PM:

I like your description of her, seems very breedable to me, sounds a lot like my Angel female actually, just do your home work on a stud for her and it should work out for you, and best of luck if you do breed her

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