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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-29-2014 06:42 PM:

Nite hunt question.

I entered a RQE this past Saturday and had an intresting situation happen. I was the judge. It was a 4 dog cast. First cut the dogs god fairly deep and a dog gave a high pitch bark. Two handlers struck the same dog. As soon as the one struck the other guy says that's my dog.

Now as a judge I want to be fair but I can't allow two people to be struck on one dogs bark. How do you make a determination right there having never heard either dog bark before?

Next question. All dogs were struck in and 2 were declared treed. They were very close to a road and we were walking to the tree in an open field. The other two dogs that were struck came into the cast on the way to the treed dogs. Both took strike minus and I said hey guys we need to call timeout to keep these dogs from getting on the road the one guy with his dog walking at our feet said no another handler said yes that's the right thing to do and the other was in a hurry to get to the tree so I did not hear what he had to say. A decision had to be made and be made fast before the two dogs took off.

I grabbed my dog the other handler refused and let his female go on. Once we got to the tree they wanted me scratched for handling my dog. Was I wrong in this situation for making a call that the dogs safety could be in danger? My point was we had nothing to gain as we were already minused on strike and the road not farr off it seemed like the only logical thing to do.

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Posted by Jordan120 on 07-29-2014 06:57 PM:

Trevor, the way I see it I don't think you was in the wrong for handling your dog because of the road.

You should've scratched the guy that was in a hurry to get to the tree. He wasnt maintaining pace with the cast

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Posted by john Duemmer on 07-29-2014 07:20 PM:

Second part first, if i am the judge no one gets ahead of me on the way into a tree. I would have stopped them in their tracks for a vote on the timeout BUT you didnt get the vote done so i believe you are done for the night.

As far as the 2 guys striking their dogs, i have had this happen and i accepted both strikes and informed both handlers that as soon as we get close and i can determin which dogs voice that was the other guy gets a minus on his strike points.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-29-2014 08:53 PM:

Here is where it gets good. We decided the right thing to do was to go back to the club house since the one guy wanted me scratched. One of the other guys said he wasn't going back and he's the one I never got a clear vote from as he was trying to get to the tree when the 2 dogs were at our feet.

So the MOH wanted to know how the vote went and 2 of the 3 of us back at the club had agreed timeout should have been called. The MOH upheald the scratch. I'm not upset or mad I just feel it was not handled properly.

Posted by john Duemmer on 07-29-2014 11:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
Here is where it gets good. We decided the right thing to do was to go back to the club house since the one guy wanted me scratched. One of the other guys said he wasn't going back and he's the one I never got a clear vote from as he was trying to get to the tree when the 2 dogs were at our feet.

So the MOH wanted to know how the vote went and 2 of the 3 of us back at the club had agreed timeout should have been called. The MOH upheald the scratch. I'm not upset or mad I just feel it was not handled properly.

I dont see where the MOHs. had any choice, you had a 4 dog cast, takes 3 votes to call timeout.

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Posted by JiM on 07-29-2014 11:49 PM:

The bottom line is it takes a majority to call time. A majority of 4 is 3 votes. Either you have 3 votes or you don't. There really is no exception to that.

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Posted by wakenda creek b on 07-30-2014 01:22 AM:

If you don't have the votes to call timeout then you have to make a personal decision that's best for your dog. If my dogs in danger timeout or not Im handling her. You did that right as far as handling your dog in fear of her safety. The strike question should be handled like one guy mentioned as soon as you can tell which dog it was minus the other. Ive had to take 2nd strike on the same bark before because it was my dog. No where in the rules says you cant strike your own dog even if somebody has struke off the same bark. My dog my points. lol When I did that it threw the judge for a loop.

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Posted by jimbob_walker on 07-30-2014 01:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by wakenda creek b
If you don't have the votes to call timeout then you have to make a personal decision that's best for your dog. If my dogs in danger timeout or not Im handling her. You did that right as far as handling your dog in fear of her safety. The strike question should be handled like one guy mentioned as soon as you can tell which dog it was minus the other. Ive had to take 2nd strike on the same bark before because it was my dog. No where in the rules says you cant strike your own dog even if somebody has struke off the same bark. My dog my points. lol When I did that it threw the judge for a loop.

what about this, 2 dogs left in the cast. Hunting judge and handler. Points are close so the handler is calling what he wants on whatever bark. Of course your not going to get a majority vote so do you just take a loss with a smile?

Posted by joey on 07-30-2014 02:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jimbob_walker
what about this, 2 dogs left in the cast. Hunting judge and handler. Points are close so the handler is calling what he wants on whatever bark. Of course your not going to get a majority vote so do you just take a loss with a smile?

No it takes a majority to overrule the judge. So on that cast what the judge says goes.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-30-2014 03:40 AM:

That is a good reason why ALL casts that are 2 dogs should have a non hunting judge.

Back to my cast. My thoughts were back at the club house we had 3 cast members. 2 of the 3 voted to call timeout. That was my point. I feel scratching someone should be a last resort in any situation other then dogs fighting.

Posted by joey on 07-30-2014 05:53 AM:

At the time it was questioned it was a 4 dog cast so that is all the MOH could go by. The best thing to have done would have been demanded a clear vote from the 4th handler. I know sometimes when everything is happening you can miss things.

Posted by Krystal Lear on 07-30-2014 03:52 PM:

Not only should the cast member have been scratched for being ahead of you and the rest of the cast, but if you look on page 59 of the rulebook under 16(b) it says "Each handler must vote or their dog will be scratched"
He should have been stopped and told to vote. If he refused, he should have been scratched. It then would have been a 3 dog cast and the decision to call time out would have been made considering two cast members out of three voted to do so.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-30-2014 04:15 PM:

Even if he didn't vote the scratch was questioned and taken back to the club house where only 3 cast members were present. So to me how can you ask for a mans vote that wasn't there to give it?

I have judged a bunch and I mean a bunch of casts and this was the first question ever brought back.

Posted by Krystal Lear on 07-30-2014 04:29 PM:

You handled your dog without a concluded vote..but the way I see it is that the vote should have been concluded in your favor. The fourth member should have been scratched first for being ahead of the judge. Second because he didn't vote. If I were judging I would have warned him to get back with the cast and vote or he was getting scratched. I then would have scratched him the second he didn't turn around and come back. I would have brought up the vote one last time and handled my dog regardless of what the majority vote was. If you went back to the MOH and told him about the fourth cast member's actions, I don't see how the MOH could have upheld the scratch. Especially if two out of the three of you STILL agreed to call time out. I agree that the decision was not right..

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Posted by Davebrott on 07-30-2014 05:08 PM:

you said you were walking to dogs that are treed and then decided to call time out. you can't call time out with dogs treed and not scored handler has the right to score his tree.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-30-2014 05:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Davebrott
you said you were walking to dogs that are treed and then decided to call time out. you can't call time out with dogs treed and not scored handler has the right to score his tree.

When calling timeout all dogs that were treed will get their tree scored. You simply call timeout handle the dogs that are by your feet witha road near by. Go to the treed dogs and call time back in when you score the tree.

I think sometimes there is not an exact rule to follow. Sometimes you just need to use good judgement. I thought I was doing that but then got scratched for it lol

Posted by JiM on 07-30-2014 06:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Krystal Lear
Not only should the cast member have been scratched for being ahead of you and the rest of the cast, but if you look on page 59 of the rulebook under 16(b) it says "Each handler must vote or their dog will be scratched"
He should have been stopped and told to vote. If he refused, he should have been scratched. It then would have been a 3 dog cast and the decision to call time out would have been made considering two cast members out of three voted to do so.

You are wrong about scratching a dog making it 3 votes, you still have 4 handlers voting until someone leaves the cast. Just scratching 1 dog does not mean you are left with 3 voters.
And even if only one person returns to the club, that doesn't change the fact that it was la 4 dog cast.

You could have scratched that guy for leaving the cast but you would still have needed 3 votes to call time unless that guy quit the cast.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-30-2014 08:10 PM:

So Jim,

With the scratch being questioned and the one handler leaving the cast before returning to the club wouldn't the majority now be 2?

I said he agreed to call timeout back at the club and the one that refused to catch his dog said he said he didn't want to.

Posted by john Duemmer on 07-30-2014 10:18 PM:

Doesnt matter what the majority was back at tha clubhouse, you needed a majority vote, followed by stopping the hunt clock, followed by announcing to the cast that time was out, BEFORE handling any dogs.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-01-2014 05:25 PM:

If he left the cast and didn't come back to the clubhouse, I would think that he had withdrawn and you would have a 3 dog cast to vote.

Posted by JiM on 08-01-2014 05:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
If he left the cast and didn't come back to the clubhouse, I would think that he had withdrawn and you would have a 3 dog cast to vote.

Richard, it would be a three dog cast IF he left the cast during the hunt. I was taking it as he stayed with the cast till the hunt was over, just didn't return to the club. This question turns on whether or not that 4th guy was still in the cast when the timeout vote occurred. Was he does after that is irrelevant.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-01-2014 05:52 PM:

Re: Nite hunt question.

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
I said hey guys we need to call timeout to keep these dogs from getting on the road the one guy with his dog walking at our feet said no another handler said yes that's the right thing to do and the other was in a hurry to get to the tree so I did not hear what he had to say. A decision had to be made and be made fast before the two dogs took off.
I grabbed my dog the other handler refused and let his female go on.

So, as I reread it, you handled your dog before timeout was "officially" called. I guess that it doesn't really matter, according to the rules, who voted what, when. Mr Duemmer is right, the MOH really had no recourse but to uphold your scratch.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-01-2014 06:10 PM:

The one handler wanted me scratched or handling my dog so after the first drop we returned to the club. I didn't get a clear vote from the one handler that did not wish to return to the club. He withdrew before going back to the club.

I was probably wrong for handling my dog and deserted the scratch but it was the right thing to do with the road near by and we had already taken minus for the dogs coming in.

My main concern was 2 of the 3 back at the club had agreed time out was the right decision and how is that not the new majority since the other left the cast? Sure he was present during the ruling in question but did not return to say so.

Posted by joey on 08-01-2014 07:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
The one handler wanted me scratched or handling my dog so after the first drop we returned to the club. I didn't get a clear vote from the one handler that did not wish to return to the club. He withdrew before going back to the club.

I was probably wrong for handling my dog and deserted the scratch but it was the right thing to do with the road near by and we had already taken minus for the dogs coming in.

My main concern was 2 of the 3 back at the club had agreed time out was the right decision and how is that not the new majority since the other left the cast? Sure he was present during the ruling in question but did not return to say so.

Because you didn't get a clear vote. So time could not be called. You handled your dog without getting a vote to call time. It wouldn't matter if you were the only one to go back, it still took 3 votes from what was at the time of the scratch a 4 dog cast. The mistake you made was not putting the brakes on the handler walking away from the cast. If he refused to stop and continues to walk away then scratch him. He has then left the cast and you now have the 3 dog cast. But instead you handled your dog and that gets you scratched. There are two things when you are asked to judge that you have to have. One is a working knowledge of the rules. The other is control of the cast. When you let him walk off without making him vote or scratching him for not you just lost control of the cast.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 08-01-2014 08:52 PM:

Maybe so joey. I have judged many many casts and never brought back a single question untill then.

When understanding the situation it was the only logical thing to do. Breaking the rules or whatever you call it.

There was an open field that led to a road close to where the dogs were treed. 2 dogs treeing clearly and the other 2 show up at your feet taking strike minus. There was one smart thing to do at that point and one thing only. Calling time to keep the dogs from danger.

It's just sad a guy would throw a fit and try to eliminate his competition for trying to save his dog. Wonder what he would have thought if his female got smashed on the road shortly after he wouldn't leash her up.

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