UKC Forums - rule question 5 (b)

Show all 19 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- rule question 5 (b) (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928373131)

Posted by CDOGS on 04-25-2014 04:55 PM:

rule question 5 (b)

Does rule 5 (b) mean to minus strike points only or tree points also?

(If dog comes into tree after judge arrives and coon is seen?)

Posted by JiM on 04-25-2014 06:22 PM:

How would a dog that got there after the judge have any tree points to minus?

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Posted by TJ Turner on 04-25-2014 08:11 PM:

If a dog comes in to a tree and a coon is seen then the dog gets strike minus and if the tree is circle or minus the dog gets deleted strike points.

Posted by john Duemmer on 04-25-2014 08:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by TJ Turner
If a dog comes in to a tree and a coon is seen then the dog gets strike minus and if the tree is circle or minus the dog gets deleted strike points.

No, the strike is not deleted it is circled. 5b.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by Jordan120 on 04-25-2014 09:35 PM:

I'm with Jim how can a dog get tree points after the judge arrives?

__________________
Proud supporters of coal!
Coal keeps the lights on!!!

**Home Of**

PR Money's Little Rain
Nitech PR The Midnight Joker

Jordan Maynard
304-385-4266 --Home
304-784-2091 --Cell

Richard Maynard
304-272-3338 --Home
304-784-7551 --Cell

**Call us anytime if you have a question**

**RIP**
Grnitech Grch PR High Spirit Dan
~7-8-1999 to 10-6-2012~
PR Stylish Ruby[color=blue](Died with 2 UKC first)
PR WV'S High Power Aka FEFE (2008 WV State Champion)
(Died with 2 UKC first)
PR MY Fightin Side(Died with a UKC 1st and 2nd)
~8-20-2007 to 12-7-2012~
Grnitech Grch PR Maynard's Nocturnal Nicki
10-1-2003 to 6-22-15

Posted by perry co cooner on 04-25-2014 11:21 PM:

It's possible this question is coming from a young hunter. He's obviously trying to get a better understanding of the rules which would lead one to believe he is a comp hunter or interested in becoming one.

I'm not sure why seasoned comp hunters would want to belittle him by responding with "how would a dog that got there after the judge have any tree points to delete".

Perhaps there are more tactful ways to answer his question. The answer is obvious to some of you but to the original poster it's not.

Is this how we're treating other hunters (young or old) that are trying to learn and understand the rules? I can't imagine why people aren't beating down the doors to coon hunting club house's trying to become members. What a shame.

__________________
Al Tarantella

Posted by pamjohnson on 04-25-2014 11:54 PM:

if coon is seen there would be next avialable tree points awarded to the dog and minused as with his strike points

Posted by john Duemmer on 04-25-2014 11:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
if coon is seen there would be next avialable tree points awarded to the dog and minused as with his strike points

Not in this case because he said the dog came in after the judge arrived.
The only time tree points are assigned is if the dog is already treeing when the cast arrives.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by JiM on 04-25-2014 11:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by perry co cooner
It's possible this question is coming from a young hunter. He's obviously trying to get a better understanding of the rules which would lead one to believe he is a comp hunter or interested in becoming one.

I'm not sure why seasoned comp hunters would want to belittle him by responding with "how would a dog that got there after the judge have any tree points to delete".

Perhaps there are more tactful ways to answer his question. The answer is obvious to some of you but to the original poster it's not.

Is this how we're treating other hunters (young or old) that are trying to learn and understand the rules? I can't imagine why people aren't beating down the doors to coon hunting club house's trying to become members. What a shame.

Al, you are full of crap.

Posted by buck brush on 04-26-2014 12:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Not in this case because he said the dog came in after the judge arrived.
The only time tree points are assigned is if the dog is already treeing when the cast arrives.

john it has to be slick or off game also does it not if coon is seen he does not get tree points? I THINK i may be wrong.

__________________
Skip Hartline
219-325-0914- H
CELL 219-898-5725

gone but will never be forgotten

PR Van Dusen's Hanna o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Maggie o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Mickey o/h
PR Buck Brush Copper o/h
D NTCH PR Crooked Oak Boss o/h
D NtCH PR Alford's Alibi h
NTCH PR Alford's Hatchet h
NT CH PR Mill's Dotty h

Posted by john Duemmer on 04-26-2014 12:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by buck brush
john it has to be slick or off game also does it not if coon is seen he does not get tree points? I THINK i may be wrong.

Right you are.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by perry co cooner on 04-26-2014 02:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Al, you are full of crap.

Really? How am I full of crap? Do you think your comment answered his question or helped him understand the rule? Does it make you feel good trying to make someone feel stupid for asking a question. Maybe it makes you feel better about yourself, I don't know.

In my opinion the classy thing to do would have been to explain that there are no tree points to minus and explain why OR just don't post anything if you felt it was that dumb of a question.

Your comp hunting days are pretty much over as I understand it so maybe you can use your passion for the sport and knowledge of the rules to help others that are just getting started.

__________________
Al Tarantella

Posted by CDOGS on 04-28-2014 05:49 PM:

rule question

Thanks for all the help on 5 (b) Maybe the rule should specify strike points only because some hunters award tree points also and minus them.
If I understand correctly tree points do not come into play ever if the dog arrives after the judge is at the tree.

Now can someone clarify how to score a dog at the tree but not declared treeed when the judge arrives. What to do if the tree is plussed, minused, or cirlcled?

Dont worry Jim I wont' be offended if you think this is a dumb question. I'd bet 50% of the time these situations are scored wrong in the hunts.

Posted by Mark Antrim on 04-28-2014 06:26 PM:

To me that is where this rule is not correct. If the dog comes into the tree and it is determined that it is slick, his strike points should be minused along with everybody elses, you shouldn't have to see a coon to minus him. That dog started a track that is why he is struck in and he didn't finish it. To me that is no different then him striking in and then 5 minutes later he comes walking in. If they won't tree on slick tree then he shouldn't be there, go get treed somewhere else or take your minus on strike.

Posted by CDOGS on 04-28-2014 06:29 PM:

I see your point and wondered why 5 (b) was an exception to a dog getting minus for quitting a track. What does everyone else think about it?

Posted by on 04-28-2014 09:52 PM:

I think I can answer the "WHY" to that question. Not saying I agree with it, just trying to answer.

I think it was felt there is a tremendous amount of pressure being put on a dog trailing to have other dogs treeing, and people at the tree shining it. That amount of pressure deserved giving the dog a break if it came to the tree. My opinion is I don't care what others or their dogs are doing, mine better stay struck if running and stay treed if treeing.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-29-2014 03:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Al, you are full of crap.

Aren't you being awful hard on an older hunter?

Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-29-2014 03:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Antrim
That dog started a track that is why he is struck in and he didn't finish it.

It sounds like he finished it by trailing into the closed tree. He tried to trail on but he couldn't. So he came back into the tree that the other dogs "finished" on. Apparantly they couldn't trail on either so they just made a slick tree. So, would you minus the dog that at least attempted to trail on? I hear a lot of comp hunters say that they want their dog to just "make" a tree if they get stuck on a track.

Posted by Okie Hunter on 04-29-2014 05:04 PM:

Re: rule question

quote:
Originally posted by CDOGS
Thanks for all the help on 5 (b) Maybe the rule should specify strike points only because some hunters award tree points also and minus them.
If I understand correctly tree points do not come into play ever if the dog arrives after the judge is at the tree.

Now can someone clarify how to score a dog at the tree but not declared treed when the judge arrives. What to do if the tree is plussed, minused, or cirlcled?

I have always called this particular situation the "pitching dog rule" and felt it needs overhauled.

Here's the flaw in this rule:

If the tree is plussed and my dog is treed, but not declared treed, when the cast arrives, I am minused my strike points because a coon is seen.

If the tree is scored minus and my dog is treed, but not declared treed, I am "awarded" next available position on tree and minused both strike and tree points.

Circle points doesn't really make any difference in UKC, so it really isn't worth mentioning. When was the last time you saw a tie breaker broken by circle points in a UKC hunt? The percentage of that happening is so small that circle points are basically a non-factor in UKC events.

The first part of this is knowing your dog. If my dog has a reputation of covering another dogs tree or is treed before the tree is closed, I will tree him for the lowest amount possible because the way the rule is written. It would be dumb not to because if it's plussed and my dog is there but not declared treed, I am taking a minus. If the tree is minused, I am going to be awarded next available position and minused both strike and tree points. Because of this rule, I see no reason to not tree my dog if he is treeing or if I feel he might be there especially if he has a tendency to cover a dog's tree. Is it wrong to do that? Yes it is, but UKC is the one that has backed me into that corner with the way they have written the rule.

I have always been of the opinion that if a dog is treeing at a slick tree, but not declared treed, he should be minused his strike points only. We do that if the tree is plussed, so why not carry the same penalty for that particular dog if the tree is minused?

When I go to a hunt, I know my dog. In this situation, the rules are taking away my advantage of knowing my dog if he doesn't sound right on a tree and I choose not to tree him. As written, the rule we're talking about gives me little choice but to take the last available tree position before the tree is closed and gamble on the outcome.

__________________
Freddy Wells
Plus Point English
Mounds, Oklahoma

Home of:
UKC DUAL GR CH PKC CH CHKC Money Winner ALL GRAND YOGI (GR NITE CH MOORE'S HARDTIME ALL GRAND HORN x DUAL GR CH ENGLISHPRIDE'S LITTLE LIZ) 2017 UKC Performance and PKC Super Stakes Sire

UKC DUAL GR CH TREE ROCKN NELLY (DUAL GR CH PKC GOLD CH MAIN STREET ROY X GR NITE CH PKC CH INDIAN RIDGE CINDY) Littermate sister to 2013 UKC WORLD CH GR NITE CH MAIN STREET JOHN THE BAPTIST

PLUS POINT ZINGO (DUAL GRAND CH '98 ENGLISH HALL OF FAME WILCOX THUNDER BINGO semen X CH NITE CH CLONES FRONT PAGE) The only living direct son of Bingo alive today!

Gone but not forgotten:

UKC GR NITE CH PKC CH PLUS POINT BLUE BOY BRUISER (66 "canes" stored at OnceFrozen) Direct son of DUAL GR CH PKC CH CLEAR CREEK CADILLAC JACK x CH GR NITE CH '95 UKC World Hunt High Scoring English Female WELLS' LITTLE PATCH

CH GR NITE CH WELLS' LITTLE PATCH (High Scoring English Female 1995 UKC World Hunt) Direct Daughter of GR NITE CH PKC GOLD CH DARON'S BLUE REB (LUMIS) x GR NITE CH PKC GOLD CH ACHA WORLD CH BUFFALO CREEK PATCH

GR NITE CH PKC CH CLEAR CREEK MISSY II (Sister to Dual Grand Clear Creek Cadillac Jack and mother of ACHA World Champion PKC Silver CH Raef's Dollar Bill)

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:13 PM.

Show all 19 posts from this thread on one page