UKC Forums - If rat attack was a redbone

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Posted by Treesmoke on 03-25-2014 09:00 PM:

If rat attack was a redbone

I've got a question. If rat attack came back to life as a Redbone,
How many of you would breed to him? Rat was resporesponsible for some of the winningest walkers alive today. They started early and lord would they get treed. Rat was an impact sire in the walker world. I was fortunate enough to meet buzz Lynch and see rat while he was alive. I asked buzz how accurate was rat. He said "oh I'd say about 50-60%,
Now I know that isn't very accurate but you can cut your dog loose and I'll cut rat and you will make 3 trees and look at 3 coons and I'll make 10 trees and look at 6 coons in the same amount of time!" he did throw in a few more words that I chose to leave out! Now how many of you would feed a 50-60% accurate dog, let alone breed to it? Was Mr Lynch on to something? Personally I think the walker breed had too much tree but it is hard to argue against the records of those treedogs in competition. The same can be asked of a dog with too much mouth. Should we cull or reconsider the contributions the dog could make? I'm not one for breeding dogs with faults but would the gap between the walkers and other breeds be as large if Mr Lynch had of done what most of would do if we walked to 5 slicks out of 10?

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Posted by Sawblade on 03-25-2014 09:18 PM:

Just math

I'm not saying anything about what Rat did for the breed but if I do the math right and I assume Rat was fast enough to get treed first on those 4 slicks that gives him around -600 points if the tree are scored honestly. Is he still winning the cast with that much minus. Just asking.

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Posted by mmarshall on 03-25-2014 09:33 PM:

That brought back some Memory's if you only knew how close his mom came to being culled lol
But slick trees wasn't it

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Posted by Treesmoke on 03-25-2014 09:50 PM:

Corrrct

I believe you are correct Mr Hyde. I think buzz was trying to make the point that rat could do more good in same amount of time but you gotta take the bad with it. What I'm asking is, if we need more tree power in out dogs should we consider breedin
to a dog like rat? Or if we need more mouth should we consider a babble? I think that the best option is breed balanced to balanced but that would be in a perfect world.

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Posted by Don Barnett Sr on 03-25-2014 09:54 PM:

Scott

If we were honest and didn't think so much of our dogs and the job WE think they do The % of coons treed would be a lot less then we think. If I don't see a coon, In my mind it ain't there. I have never seen an 80% accurate dog. Im sure some will argue that fact and thats find. I only count coons not maybes. I will say Deuce is 55 to 65%. But he will get that % QUICK.

Posted by Tony Dominguez on 03-25-2014 10:09 PM:

I'd breed my grandmas poodle to him lol ANY dog to sire numerous WORLD champions & BIG TIME winners is worthy of being named a great reproducer! I breed to what dog dog reproduces as to the traits that he reproduces, not on his ability to hunt

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Posted by tylerman on 03-25-2014 10:09 PM:

Being this a is a UKC site lets keep this about ukc standings.

1- top 100 winners
2-dogs that can get past a qualifier
3-dogs that can ntch
4-better repo %

What do you want/expect/hope for ?

What did Rat create, of the 4 listed for the walkers?

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-25-2014 11:15 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tylerman
Being this a is a UKC site lets keep this about ukc standings.

1- top 100 winners
2-dogs that can get past a qualifier
3-dogs that can ntch
4-better repo %

What do you want/expect/hope for ?

What did Rat create, of the 4 listed for the walkers?
lol.....why do people who only have UKC registered dogs always want to limit a dogs reproducing ability to what its pups have done only in UKC. There is a whole other world out there where guys compete for money and that's where the best of the best gravitate to after they grand out. You will see them winning week in and week out in those hunts between big UKC hunts. I am not promoting those hunts over UKC hunts....but because UKC doesn't offer titles higher than grand....there isn't much incentive for top level dogs to compete in UKC except for a few of the bigger hunts each year. So why take all of that winning history of pups from a dog out of the equasion just because they won in another registry? If you think it easier to be a big consistent winner in the money hunts than it is in UKC...you are sadly mistaken....the competition is at a much higher level

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Posted by Sawblade on 03-25-2014 11:23 PM:

hunted with several

The several rat pups I've hunted with had two traits I remember best they were fast on track and fast to get treed. The track speed impressed me. The sometimes empty trees didn't. It did seem that as they got older they would not be as slick as much. He made a mark on the walker breed for sure.

Posted by Treesmoke on 03-25-2014 11:48 PM:

Reproducer

I'm not sure exactly what rat pups have won as far as percentages go or any of that. I haven't study him that close. Maybe I should. But if do know that anyone would consider him a reproducer. He didn't reproduce the type of dogs that suits everyone but which dog has. I'm not only talking about his pups either but also his grand pups. Theres a lot of dogs winning in all registrys that are carrying him in a three generation. And I'd be willing to bet all of them have one thing on common, they will get hooked. Most of them are probably above average track dogs too. And bear maybe right, maybe buzz was just more honest than most. Idk. I do know I've hunted a lot of walkers close to him and they would pull slick worse than most other bloodlines I've hunted.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-26-2014 12:12 AM:

Rat crossed really well on stylish harry and nailor lines. He was a great reproducer of titled dogs and big money winners but probably has the reputation for throwing the most dogs who were bad to slick tree in the walker breed. I think that is one thing we don't see much of in the redbone breed and while some lines may need more and quicker tree power...I would not do it at the expense of that much accuracy. The line I hunt , quick locating and hard treeing is probably their best trait. Consistently being the first dogs to open in a cast is not and they could be better strike dogs on average. Most are not bad...but not great either....but the tree power is there. We need a big winning, well bred dog to come along in this breed that is a dominant reproducer of traits that most of the lines could be better at....but I think we should be able to do that without giving up the solid traits we have in those lines....jmo
and I am in no way taking anything away from rat....who made a huge impact to the walker breed.

Posted by Bobby Stevens on 03-26-2014 12:26 AM:

number 1 historical reproducer as of CB april issue 318 nt ch 234 gr nt ch total ch's 552 total pups perm regd. 2073 percentage 22.46

lets not talk about rat anymore he said if he came back as a redbone would u breed to him ?
my answer would have to be YES
not for the type dogs I like but for the winners he reproduced its in black and white page 147 this month its the highest percentage of all the other breeds living or dead

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Posted by Brian Jennewein on 03-26-2014 01:23 AM:

Redbone world had that dog come along once with those traits.His name was Grnitech Tree Burning Moses.Moses was a red Rat Attack in hunting style,he was greatly overlooked in the breeding pen but what pups are out there are proving Moses passed on those same traits.Which in competition hunts can produce big winners.Not everyone's type of dog but neither was Rat.

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Posted by Don Barnett Sr on 03-26-2014 07:25 AM:

Brian

Moses, being looked over as a stud dog. That brought to mind something I was told when I decided to offer Deuce as a stud dog. Iwas told by a well know breeder and a very respected houndsman. It don't matter if he throws pups that tree at eight weeks old and poop gold nuggets. People won't breed to him enough to make it worth your while. That upset me at that time. But now I understand what he was talking about. It sad.

Posted by tylerman on 03-26-2014 02:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by tylerman
Being this a is a UKC site lets keep this about ukc standings.

1- top 100 winners
2-dogs that can get past a qualifier
3-dogs that can ntch
4-better repo %

What do you want/expect/hope for ?

What did Rat create, of the 4 listed for the walkers?

I guess the ones that know answered this...and yes with those repo numbers and ability I would most def breeed to a redbone with that could create that.

Some very important wise old breeders have told me...Thinking inside the box and breeding over and over with same results yr after yr is not a solution.Its repetition and seldom creates above avg.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-26-2014 03:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by tylerman
I guess the ones that know answered this...and yes with those repo numbers and ability I would most def breeed to a redbone with that could create that.

Some very important wise old breeders have told me...Thinking inside the box and breeding over and over with same results yr after yr is not a solution.Its repetition and seldom creates above avg.

Whats your idea of thinking outside the box?
You have made crosses and raised litters from your females.....did you follow the advise of this wise old breeder that you know?
Did it work.....or did you pretty much get what everyone else is getting in the breed.
How many NtCh and GrNtCh dogs have your name listed under breeder?
Have you ever had a dog on the reproducers list?
I would really like to hear some of your outside the box ideas on how you ....or this wise old breeder would breed dogs and as you say, not get the same results over and over again.....so please do elaborate for us wanna be breeders because we would like to improve the breed and from what you have said....it sounds like you know exactly how to do that.
I am a little puzzled as to why your not doing it....but a man can never really know why another chooses to not do something that would improve a thing if he were able while at the same time criticising others who are trying....but I am sure you have your reasons. Maybe if you share some more of what your wise old breeder told you we could all learn from him and finally get out of this box we are stuck in and I think we would all welcome any advice that could help with that. And maybe you could tell us about how many crosses you have made using that wise breeders advice and how many titled dogs those crosses have produced so far. That way we can see for ourselves that you are on the right track and producing better results than the rest of us who are stuck in this old box doing the same thing over and over again and getting nowhere. I for one would love to hear what we can do that would be better than what we are already doing in several of the more successful competition lines across the country.

Posted by Treesmoke on 03-26-2014 03:09 PM:

Outside the box

Well put dave! I don't know much about breeding. I'm studying it as much as possible. Thats the reason for this thread. I also learned a lot from Kelly Hyde thread on here, "what have you learned." I wonder if sometimes we are too afraid to step outside the box or if maybe we are you blind to see that there are things outside the box that can help our breed. Walker guys
sseem to have some luck outside the box. I'm not trying to prove a point, just simply asking a question!

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-26-2014 03:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Jennewein
Redbone world had that dog come along once with those traits.His name was Grnitech Tree Burning Moses.Moses was a red Rat Attack in hunting style,he was greatly overlooked in the breeding pen but what pups are out there are proving Moses passed on those same traits.Which in competition hunts can produce big winners.Not everyone's type of dog but neither was Rat.

Do you know how many times moses was bred or how many pups he has? I do not, but I don't think it was very many. I think one of the things that made Rat what many consider a great reproducer is that when he was crossed on a good reproducing female....many times nearly the whole litter would title out. He had alot of home run litters like that instead of just one or two from a litter.
If you study crosses from him that were home runs you see a pattern that mainly leads back to females from certain lines like nite heat, stylish harry, nailor, lipper, etc. Some of rat's best crosses were out of females who were some of the highest % reproducers in the breed at the time...no matter what they were bred to. I think that is a very important part of evaluating any stud dog with a high % of titled dogs. Certain high % females in the walker breed...as well as the redbone breed can sometimes raise a studs % almost single handedly. It is important to remember that the best females on the reproducers list are always 2-3 times higher in % than the best males....
I would say that last litter out of moses by one of the best reproducing females in the breed may prove to be an example of this. in a few years we could see moses's % double or triple from the success of one litter from a single good reproducing female.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-26-2014 03:34 PM:

Re: Outside the box

quote:
Originally posted by Treesmoke
Well put dave! I don't know much about breeding. I'm studying it as much as possible. Thats the reason for this thread. I also learned a lot from Kelly Hyde thread on here, "what have you learned." I wonder if sometimes we are too afraid to step outside the box or if maybe we are you blind to see that there are things outside the box that can help our breed. Walker guys
sseem to have some luck outside the box. I'm not trying to prove a point, just simply asking a question!

What is keeping you or Dave, or anyone else from stepping outside the box?
Maybe there are some who are already doing that with great results and some see it and some don't. Who are the breeders in our breed that are producing the most litters with titled dogs? What methods are they using? Are those methods considered inside the box?
I for one would love to hear some of these outside the box theories on breeding. I call them theories because until someone starts using these methods to produce dogs better than the best redbone breeders at the current time.....thats all they are. But still, if Dave or anyone has truly new and outside the box ideas on how to produce a better redbone....lets hear it and talk about it and maybe even try it....because thats what alot of us have been working very hard to do...improve our breed. Talking about it is one thing...but we needto be doing something about it if we are serious and want to see results and if there is a better way....people will adopt it....so please share

Posted by Brian Jennewein on 03-26-2014 03:51 PM:

Moses obviously will never be bred the way Rat was.My point with Moses is very simple,he was the same kind of hound as Rat in that he was more a competition hound looking to get treed.And from what we've seen in his pups,and not just the ones from Pepper Ann,he reproduced the same kind of pup from different females.This meaning he was able to produce his likeness,this being more a competition hound.Very easy to understand.And as far as breeding goes.To each his own,breed what you want and hunt what you want everyone has different taste in dogs.Good luck to everyone.

Posted by Treesmoke on 03-26-2014 03:59 PM:

Outside the box

All I'm saying is that maybe breeding to a dog that isn't very accurate but has potential to pass some really strong tree to his pups, or breeding some more babblers into our programs might be thinking more outside the box. I think we have a lot of tree dogs in our breed. I do believe we need more mouth. Are we too quick to cull a babblers? Some breeders will only breed close to there lines with few outcrosses. I think that is what dave was referring to in the last part of his post. Jmo

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-26-2014 04:17 PM:

Re: Outside the box

quote:
Originally posted by Treesmoke
All I'm saying is that maybe breeding to a dog that isn't very accurate but has potential to pass some really strong tree to his pups, or breeding some more babblers into our programs might be thinking more outside the box. I think we have a lot of tree dogs in our breed. I do believe we need more mouth. Are we too quick to cull a babblers? Some breeders will only breed close to there lines with few outcrosses. I think that is what dave was referring to in the last part of his post. Jmo

I doubt that is what dave means...he has a very tightly linebred outlaw male in his signature named bill and you dont get much more tightly line bred than moses...so he probably meant something else.....
I have seen dave use the term triple pepper alot when referring to those pups out of moses and pepper ann, so thats why i don't think dave has anything against line breeding. maybe he just doesn't like particular lines.
But I will see what he has to say.
Brian, I was just wondering how many times moses was bred and how many pups he has. I never hunted with him. I have heard he was quite a tree dog. and since he is heavy line bred there is a good chance that is locked in as a pretty dominant trait that will be passed on to his offspring.

Posted by Treesmoke on 03-26-2014 04:21 PM:

Shane

I never said that there weren't people out there doing it. I was talking about our breed in general. I think we are heading in the right direction. I've seen on some other threads on here where you have said that you and a few others were working towards getting that dog with a competitive edge. I for one would like to hear how yall are going about that. Maybe your one of the ones
thats already outside the box. I may want some of what you got....so please share

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Posted by JShelton on 03-26-2014 04:37 PM:

think outside the box

Breed a redbone to rat attack semen lol

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-26-2014 04:43 PM:

Re: Shane

quote:
Originally posted by Treesmoke
I never said that there weren't people out there doing it. I was talking about our breed in general. I think we are heading in the right direction. I've seen on some other threads on here where you have said that you and a few others were working towards getting that dog with a competitive edge. I for one would like to hear how yall are going about that. Maybe your one of the ones
thats already outside the box. I may want some of what you got....so please share

Well, I am pretty open and share what I am doing in my program on this board often. I believe that breeding the best females are the key to bettering this breed. For years everyone seemed to assume the stud carried weak females andr I think it hurt the breed. What I saw happen in the walker breed just before it took a quantum leap forward was more people finishing out their females to grand and then breeding those females to the best studs. I also saw some of the owners of the best studs start giving big discounts to nt and grntch females which encouraged more people to identify the best females and prove they could earn a title before they were bred. The results were higher and higher % litters because the weaker and unworthy dogs were not getting bred to as much because the pup buyers were going to buy pups from titled females over un proven pr females.
So me and the guys I am associated with place a very high standard on the females we breed and we are getting better and better results.
Criticism in this breed is good, when it comes from a qualified source....but when you see someone on this board criticising others who are leading the breed in almost every measure of success and accomplishment, while those doing the criticising have little to show for their "better way".....I for one tend to be skeptical. I am not saying you did this, but your thread brought some out that do.
To say someone is doing the same thing over and over and getting average results when those very breeders they are talking about are leading the breed in results as far as High % litters and titled dog after titled dog is disingenuous to say the least.
You almost never see criticism between successful breeders....it is usually those who have had little to no success after years of trying their "better way" who are always poking, jabbing, and criticising the successful breeders who have found what works and are constantly trying to improve upon it.
Good luck scott, and if you ever want to try something from the line I hunt....I am sure that can be arranged. We have a pretty good record and the line I hunt has produced literally hundreds of NTCH and GRNTCH dogs over the past 20-25 years so I think we might be on to something....at least in our little box

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