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-- Scoring Dogs On Time Intervals Instead Of "Circles" (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928368090)

Scoring Dogs On Time Intervals Instead Of "Circles"

A little backstory to let you know where I'm coming from. When we wrote these Hunting Beagle rules (1988...dang I'm getting old), it made sense for the purpose of keeping this format true to hunting situations to score the dogs when they brought the rabbit back to the gun (pencil) near where it was jumped. It's still a very traditional way of looking at it and explaining it. But everyone who has been running in this format since day 1 (Roy) will tell you that the scoring of "circles" has been an issue even way back then. And it's still being discussed today. I'm sure that the option of scoring timed intervals has been discussed on this forum previously but I can't remember what the best arguments against it were so I'd like to discuss this again.

Back in the day I liked to think my beagle club had our slate of hunting judges on pretty much the same page in regards to what we would score and what we wouldn't. There is no way of knowing how consistent we actually were. But when beaglers were brought together from all over the country (HB Nationals) and we were required to use hunting judges from different regions, there was no consistency. In fact it was very inconsistent. I don't know whether it's more fair to say "correctly judged casts" or "conservatively judged casts" have a hard time making winner's pack. But that's a fact. And that affects the judgement of what's "close enough".

You might suggest that this is not a problem in elimination style casts, but I suggest that it can be. If a cast is consistently short circling rabbits, it can definitely benefit a different "style" of dog so the format again lacks consistency.

The answer to me is obvious and has been for a long time. But, it never gains any support and I can't remember why? What do you not like about the idea of only being able to score dogs every 5 minutes, or 3 minutes or 10 minutes....whatever we settle on? If you right a time down next to your line box when you score a line, and then you cannot score the dogs again until you have a marked line after the required interval, how could you ever get more consistent judging than that?

I won't agree that it's too much to keep up with on stopwatch. I will agree that big running rabbits and close circling rabbits could be a factor but that is something we can't control. Eliminating the difference of opinion that you and I have on what is a circle is something we can control.

So let's hear it. What's your best argument against scoring on time intervals?

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I'd be all for it just to keep the casts judged more consistently. I think 3 min on scoring lines is a minimum. Any less than that is gonna cause guys to breed for speed only. You remember back in the day Todd when we had unlimited lines on rabbits. Like I said 3 min between lines should be a minimum and you still have to limit how many lines per rabbit.

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Joe Brown
UKC Field Representative

Please keep this thread geared towards the topic of speed and drive and the idea of timed intervals only. Thanks.

How much does the size of the area you have to run effect the time. Cuz I know in Ohio we have some big spots that rabbits will stay up and run for awhile but over here in pa and md we hunt small spots because that's all we have but the rabbits don't run long. So I think 3 mins is too long.

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1 minute.

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Would be nice to fit 3 jumps with a possible 3 lines each into 60 min hunt.

7 min for line after initial jump/strike. then 3 min until 2nd line, 3 more minutes until third line is scored. Start clock when 1st dog scores line.
Reason: Allows dogs to pack in and settle before first line is scored on track.
If everything worked out perfect could get up to 4 complete sets. Seems more likely to get 3 sets or less in most one hour hunts.
Start clock when first dog scores line, that is when the clock should be started that gives dogs their one minute to score line. Simple to leave the clock run to the 7 or 3 min mark then declare line is open.

Pros: More consistent judging.
More lines scored would be more detrimental to dogs that get a bit wild and out of position. They could miss more lines. Fast and accurate would still be an advantage.

Cons: More lines scored would decrease jump point advantage. Too big of a difference from 100 to 25 IMO so maybe not a con.
Big advantage to those who are able to run with the pack and score more lines. Could limit cast/handler movement in some way to avoid this con. Many times the cast does see the rabbit clearly but it has not completely "circled"/ is not in shooting range. Could score those without the need to run with the pack.
This could also affect the rule that a dog must run majority of track to be eligible to score line.

Todd I think scoring on a time bases would only favor a dog that can burn a track once the rabbit is up. This I feel would take away from a good jump dog. We all know how important it is to have a good jump dog, on those tough days. I've seen dogs that have placed in all kinds of big hunts, that would be hard pressed to jump there own rabbit, if put down by themselves. I think it should be kept as close to real hunting scenario as possible. Dog brings the rabbit back to you score it. I hate catching my dog after 3 lines but again, more lines only favors a fast dog. One way to reward a jump dog would be this, after any given 15 minutes the dog who strikes 1st gets 25 extra points. just Idea and just my humble opinion, all the best.

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2009 Ohio State Hunt Grand Cast winner at age 9. 2007 NHBA Days Grand Champion Winner and Top Dog of the Hunt Winner, the only dog out of 80 to circle a rabbit that day. 2003 Ohio State UKC and NKC Best in show Winner, Nationals and Eliminator Best Senior Male. National Cast Winner 8 years in a row.
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"The more you think you know, the less you really know".

Another thing is , if dogs didn't have to circle or bring rabbit back. You could even have walkie talk dogs and score em every 3, 5, 10 minutes and only move the track 20, 50 feet. lol

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Gorman's Creek Kennels
The Home of GRHBCH GRCH Cherry Hill Red Chief
2009 Ohio State Hunt Grand Cast winner at age 9. 2007 NHBA Days Grand Champion Winner and Top Dog of the Hunt Winner, the only dog out of 80 to circle a rabbit that day. 2003 Ohio State UKC and NKC Best in show Winner, Nationals and Eliminator Best Senior Male. National Cast Winner 8 years in a row.
HBCH GRCH Cherry Hill Blue Ribbon Best in Show Winner of the 1st McVay
2002 Memorial Hunt, Champion of Champions Eliminator Hunt. National Cast winner 3 years in a row.
GRHBCH Gorman's Big Brassy
HBCH CH Gorman's Creek Jewel
CH Gorman's Princess Leia

"The more you think you know, the less you really know".

Jamey, you bring up a good point about jump ability, and I agree with you. However, I don't think the proposal suggests that you would change the number of times a rabbit may be scored on speed and drive. Therefore it would not be messing with a whole lot where the jump is concerned?

quote:

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Originally posted by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL
7 min for line after initial jump/strike. then 3 min until 2nd line, 3 more minutes until third line is scored. Start clock when 1st dog scores line.

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Exactly we hunt a lot of fence rows and railroad tracks and the rabbits circle different there then they do in pine tree farms.

__________________
"To ask why we run rabbits
Is to ask why leaves fall...

Because its in our nature"

Good point bunnybuster. Should probably be some stipulation in case of a faster circle such as down and back the other side of a fence row. Maybe the first line could be scored before the seven minutes if it is unanimous vote by the cast, or determined by non-hunting judge, that the rabbit returned to where it could have been shot. That is... with a shotgun not a 22 rifle. LOL Maybe just need to get rid of the word circle and reword it to state what was originally meant when it was written. Do like the idea of getting more lines per set of strike points.

I like it the way it is also. to me speed and drive is the dividing factor in rabbit dogs and if the rabbit circles and crosses a viewing lane at just the wrong time it may not be scored at all. where I hunt one line is sometimes all you may get.

Another scenario is a cold nose dog with no speed may be able to get in a lot of rabbits and win on strike points when speed dogs may not get the chance to be scored because of rabbits that may cross 10 seconds before the time limit is up to score a line.

So I say leave it the way it is.

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I to agree keep it the same

Scoring dogs

We like the 3 min time that sounds good we agree with Joe

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Norfork Party Time Beagles
Dora Missouri
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Timed lines is the only way to go it takes the gray area out of the rules....

How about judges get in with the dogs and watch the dogs run and see what dogs working, not just the front end dog that reaches the most to score the "line"?

Unless you start adapting rules that help the dog actually is running the track and not just fighting to the front at all costs, your crowd will be the same and the dogs will fall into the same category.......just my thoughts....

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Jim Hall
Buffalo Creek Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by BCBeagles
How about judges get in with the dogs and watch the dogs run and see what dogs working, not just the front end dog that reaches the most to score the "line"?

Unless you start adapting rules that help the dog actually is running the track and not just fighting to the front at all costs, your crowd will be the same and the dogs will fall into the same category.......just my thoughts....

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I have watched many UKC style hounds, the running seems SO hit and miss.....60 yards, loss, 50 yds, loss.......
100 yards, loss.....

In response to everyone breeding in UKC for speed, that is already the case for most.....front dog, scores the most....therefore wins the most......that is consistant.

Track recovery and maintanence of the keeping the rabbit running, be it medium speed and or fast should be more merit over which dog powers to the front off the body language of the other hounds.

BELIEVE me, others formats are dealing with the whole "speed" issue as well. I have seen train wrecks with other associations and left scratching my head as well.

Who ever promotes the most complete track driving, minimal losses, hunting hound regardless of speed(within reason) is who is going to get my money.

As well, taking the "slick" handler out of the equation makes the "best" dog the BEST dog, not the handler of the year champing out another average hound.....been there seen it.....thanks for your time!

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Jim Hall
Buffalo Creek Kennels

Although I am not totally against timed lines, I will say having a time limit can cause alot of issues. EXAMPLES
1. IF you make it 1 or 2 minutes between lines - Some areas allow for good visual of the dogs and their hound work. Having a timed interval only creates a clock watching situation that promotes pure speed.
2. If you make it 3 to 7 minutes between lines - This will hurt several areas that are lucky to get a 7 minute run. (RR tracks, fence rows, etc).

One of the things I have always liked about the UKC HB format is that the rules are designed to simulate a hunting experience. As for the circle it was always explained that "if you were gun hunting, would you have shot the rabbit". Those that answered yes to a minute run were schooled on the difference between jump shooting and allowing dogs to circle.
In my opinion I have seen many hounds that have excelled in a "timed line" format and they excell in speed. Having speed without the ability to run the track does not promote a quality gun dog. I think we have a good set of rules that have weathered time. A lot of changes to the format occurred this year. Now we just need to educate everyone on those rules, which Allen is doing with the judging seminar at Nationals.
I say leave it alone for now.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sundown Beagles
Although I am not totally against timed lines, I will say having a time limit can cause alot of issues. EXAMPLES
1. IF you make it 1 or 2 minutes between lines - Some areas allow for good visual of the dogs and their hound work. Having a timed interval only creates a clock watching situation that promotes pure speed.
2. If you make it 3 to 7 minutes between lines - This will hurt several areas that are lucky to get a 7 minute run. (RR tracks, fence rows, etc).

One of the things I have always liked about the UKC HB format is that the rules are designed to simulate a hunting experience. As for the circle it was always explained that "if you were gun hunting, would you have shot the rabbit". Those that answered yes to a minute run were schooled on the difference between jump shooting and allowing dogs to circle.
In my opinion I have seen many hounds that have excelled in a "timed line" format and they excell in speed. Having speed without the ability to run the track does not promote a quality gun dog. I think we have a good set of rules that have weathered time. A lot of changes to the format occurred this year. Now we just need to educate everyone on those rules, which Allen is doing with the judging seminar at Nationals.
I say leave it alone for now.

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Terrain across the U.S. varies widely. There are areas that you'd just be happy to see the rabbit once. I like 1 or 2 minutes between lines, but I think 5 or more is too much. How many times you going to see the rabbit in less than 5 minutes and then it goes to a hole. This is bad news for a good jump dog. Now you get no score and with a 60 minute time limit a lot of your time is gone. In the Midwest and South there's a rabbit under every other bush, in the North and Northeast it can be hard to find one in a 20 acre field.

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Nick

Jim Hall
You are right on the money with the speed its loss loss loss and hope they get a speed and drive.


Todd and Allen I never had an issue with the circle way of scoring that issue boils down to clubs/members teaching POTENTIAL judges how to deal with that.
If they are dishonest THEY SHOULD NOT BE CARRYING A CARD.As in running up the score by scoring every 100yrds or so.

Hey small rabbits will make a small circle -But they also cause more minus points on a card then any other single situation.
Let a circle be what it is - if it is a fence row once the hounds bring the rabbit back to about the jump point score it…

Seeing you guys trying to make the HB format better in an honest forthright way is awesome.!!!!!

I have not trialed seriously for 7-8 years just got tired of arguing with grown men about HOLES and watching hounds over run a track by 30yrds and nothing happen…

What UKC needs to see is that decent people don't have time to Judge in an honest fashion only to have to deal with cheats that take advantage of calling a hole or not.

Entrants should understand they are entering a compitition and they paying to have thier hound scrutinized.
Clubs should TRAIN their JUDGES !!
NOT EVERY ONE SHOULD BE A JUDGE

Apoligize for getting off track -JUST WARN ME FOR ROUGH RUNNING

I disagree that timed lines promote speed only. I would agree that is true the shorter you make your scoring intervals. The setting of your time intervals in theory adjusts the speed or overall balance of the hounds that should be winning. You should be able to adjust the scoring interval up or down to adjust the speed the majority of hunters feel is optimal in HB.

The longer you make the interval, the less emphasis it puts on speed. If you make your interval something really short ( I think 3 minutes is too short), checks become less of a factor and a short circling rabbit in a small briar patch is beneficial. If you extend the scoring interval to say 5 minutes, checks will come more into play.

Adjusting your time interval also could in theory reduce the luck factor of a small or big running rabbit to some degree.
If the rabbit my cast jumps runs a full 20 acre field our cast we won't be at as much of a disadvantage against a cast standing on a lane in a one acre briar patch scoring short half circles or a cast on a fence row scoring short down and backs? Not that there is anything wrong with hunting the small briar patch or the fence row, your just only going to be able to award points as often as everyone else is!

It seems less complicated to me not more complicated. And yes, I would assume we would still limit scoring to 3 lines per rabbit. We would still require a dog to be in on a majority of a circle to score, etc. The only difference would be instead of everyone in the cast convincing each other the rabbit just "circled", you look at the clock and then check the card to see when you scored the last line.

If handlers do not view whatever level of inconsistency exists as a problem, then that is probably why the idea has not generated support. But I have yet to hear a good reason why timed intervals would not lead to more consistent judging.

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