UKC Forums - Can an old dog teach a pup?

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Posted by JiM on 10-10-2013 04:35 PM:

Can an old dog teach a pup?

You hear this advise fairly often, "try hunting her with a trash free old dog". How many really believe a good, finished hound can show a pup how to be a good, finished hound?
I don't.

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Posted by smartin0022 on 10-10-2013 04:51 PM:

Well would would you hunt a pup with a tree grabbing, trash runner? I wouldn't dont want it LEARNING bad habits. So if an old dog can teach them bad habits isn't it possible that by hunting them with a straight hound they could pick up some basics? Like running coon scent rather than a deer or fox. Just my thinking. I believe if a dog has it in them it will come out with or without company. I'd rather train mine alone but that can get mundane.

Posted by prostockpat on 10-10-2013 04:58 PM:

broke/old dog

I like the old dog to teach the pup to "go hunting".Once the pup gets gone and just starts to do things{tracking/tree'n},no more trainer.
They do learn more on their own I agree. I like the old dog to just get them "hunting".
Some pups don't need any help.

Some guys think hunting them alone will make them independent.....wrong.
Independence is bred into them,not man made.If its a me too dog hunting alone won't stop it.It will still be a me too dog.
jmo

Posted by pamjohnson on 10-10-2013 06:44 PM:

just like many other things used in training it all depends on the situations. like the pup,the trainer,the finished hound,terrain,wheather and more.
sometimes its hard to see what the pup needs if u have a fixed mindset. hard enough to train them with an open mind.
I have seen pups ruined by hunting them with finished hounds as well as pups ruined because they wasn't hunted with a finished hound.
did anyone ever see this happen? ya own or hunt with a young dog and it looks real bad maybe even like a cull. get rid of that dog or lose track of it ,and later hunt with that same dog and say wow now its a coon dog, how did that happen?

Posted by Dogwhisper on 10-10-2013 06:57 PM:

An old dog can teach a youngn jus so much.But ta be a finished one no it cant, ALONE HUNTING will take it to the next level,along with a trainers
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Posted by Jordan120 on 10-10-2013 07:07 PM:

I think so I had a English pup name Stony and everytime I took him I turned him with my Dan dog and stony stuck with Dan all the time no matter what Dan stony was right there. Then I started hunting stony by himself and he was running and treeing by himself

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-10-2013 07:14 PM:

pups

We've trained alot of pups here...they start out running loose till about 6 mo old . I've got 2 gamey squirrel dogs but my main pup trainer is an old hound that was hit by a car years ago & given to me . He's the perfect speed for the little ones...running with him they can keep up not just run other dogs ...learn to run a track pick up loses & that the critters go up . By 6 mo pups are done running loose & hunted both alone & with my Mafia dog (straight as a string not an ill bone in him & very accurate) .
Bottom line is pups do enough wrong on their own just getting put all together . Never hunt one with a trash running idiot or a dog that's mean in anyway & always take them by their self too! But yes they will range out farther with an older dog in the beginning & won't be long & should do it on it's own.

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Posted by josh on 10-10-2013 07:18 PM:

IMO The only benefit to running a young dog with a "finished" hound is that it may possibly help them get started.

A good "finished" hound usually isn't a very good teacher and a good young prospect usually isn't a very good student.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 10-10-2013 08:03 PM:

I dont believe they learn a thing from an old dog except maybe how to get gone.
60 nights alone in the woods or 60 nights with the best "pup trainer" out there, and the pup that has been hunted alone everynight will be way ahead.
The challenge is loading that pup and leaveing the dog that will show you coon every night at home, and tellin your huntin buddys that you are huntin alone.
And i firmly believe the ones that are started and hunted alone mature into more independent dogs. They are used to gettin the job done alone.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 10-10-2013 08:22 PM:

The good things can't be learned but the bad ones sure can be

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Posted by prostockpat on 10-10-2013 08:37 PM:

john duemmer

your signature 100% correct and says it all!!

Posted by Roustabout on 10-10-2013 08:41 PM:

I firmly believe that hunting one alone is worlds ahead of putting them with old dogs! Pups will get into enough trouble alone, they don't need anything to show them lol

Posted by jackbob42 on 10-10-2013 08:58 PM:

I don't know if they can teach them anything or not.
But , what I do know is that I'm too lazy to live trap a half dozen coons to expose the pup to. I can do it faster and easier with the old dog. LOL

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-10-2013 08:59 PM:

training

Our technique : alone & together in all sorts of terain on the water ,in the hills & the corn ...lucky where I live is close to anything you'd want.
The thing you don't want to do is always take a pup w/ the same dog every time & never by it's self . Pups need alot of one on one. As for independence much of that is born in them & they are that way from the start no matter what you hunt them with..
If you got one that will go 800 yrds get treed & have it from the start awesome! But for those that aren't ranging out good taking w/ a good experienced hound some will show them it's ok to go on deeper.

Posted by Danny Glista on 10-10-2013 09:44 PM:

Hunt them alone!

An older hound does nothing more than maybe taking the pup deeper into the timber from the start! I would rather have a pup hunt out by itself from the start even if it only goes hunting out to 200 yards or so! If it will go that far from the start,I'll go futher as they get older. If the pup checks back in, put a lead on the pup and walk him a bit and recut! Nothing more pleasing to me than to hear a 6 or 7 month old pup locate up on a tree and tell me they got one and come and get me!! 30 nites alone or more and then hunt them on ocassion with an older hound works much better for my likings!! To much hunting with an old hound from the start gets you nothing more than having the pup stand there when you get them out by themselves and wanting to know where ole so and so is at! Then at that time, the pup still has to learn to go on it's own!! Why not start that way to begin with! JMO!!

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Posted by Scary Creek on 10-10-2013 09:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I dont believe they learn a thing from an old dog except maybe how to get gone.
60 nights alone in the woods or 60 nights with the best "pup trainer" out there, and the pup that has been hunted alone everynight will be way ahead.
The challenge is loading that pup and leaveing the dog that will show you coon every night at home, and tellin your huntin buddys that you are huntin alone.
And i firmly believe the ones that are started and hunted alone mature into more independent dogs. They are used to gettin the job done alone.

i agree with this statement to a extent . my best hunting buddy is my 80 year old uncle . he hunts and trains all his own dogs til about 3 year ago when he had a hip replacement and slowed him way down , now he don't fool with any young hounds , but he used to get a pup started with a old dog til they got the basics of hunting and going down and then he'd branch them off by themselves . he used to take a old dog and a 6 month old pup and start them out , he walk hunts the placed he hunts , so he cut em and take off walking but if they wondered off he keep on a trucking , if old dog treed he go to the tree even if the pup wasn't around , if they took off on junk , keep on walking . he never used a shocker or tracker in his life til I started putting tracking collars on them . he'd just say " they gotta learn to like the dark on their own " he work young pups by themselves on drags, cage coon , etc. but he would hunt them and train them basically on their own . ive seen him get a pup and it wanna run deer , or might tree a possum , he let em do their thing but when they were done they got a good switching , then he put em up a day or two . but one thing I noticed about this style of training was his young dogs tended to be alittle growly toward strange dogs til they got used to them , I always guessed it was just were they were used to hunting by themselves or after they were running and treeing he'd start pack hunting them again but just seemed like they were alittle ill at strange dogs at first . but this method seemed to work for him cause hes had some of the best walker dogs at the end of a lead you could ask for , they weren't real comp. style hounds but if you want to tree a pile of coon then they were your ticket !

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Posted by warn on 10-10-2013 10:11 PM:

I believe the way to finish a dog is alot of alone time. I do believe in getting the puppy a good start with an old dog because I do believe they can learn from an old dog but I also think a good mixture of hunting them alone and hunting them with another dog as they mature is my routine. but to each their own

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Posted by on 10-11-2013 12:54 AM:

The best thing a solid older dog can be used for is a measuring stick. If you have questions about a good young prospect and we all do from time to time. Your Garmin and a solid hound can answer them and helps you find reality a good young prospect sometimes makes you loose.

Posted by Dirtdevil on 10-11-2013 01:06 AM:

More nice , older dogs get bad habits from being hounded by pups than pups get trained following them .

If you can't or won't train a young dog alone ... then you probably aren't doing much of anything right .... there aren't any shortcuts.

A young dog has to feel like he's the star of the show and learn things for himself and get that confidence that only hunting alone can give ... confidence is the best kind of independence.

Kids can grow up in good , clean households and be wild adults that are always in trouble .. and vice versa ... if we can't train humans like that ... how do you think a dog can do what so many parents fail at ?

Posted by Nova70 on 10-11-2013 02:09 AM:

Re: broke/old dog

quote:
Originally posted by prostockpat
I like the old dog to teach the pup to "go hunting".Once the pup gets gone and just starts to do things{tracking/tree'n},no more trainer.
They do learn more on their own I agree. I like the old dog to just get them "hunting".
Some pups don't need any help.

Some guys think hunting them alone will make them independent.....wrong.
Independence is bred into them,not man made.If its a me too dog hunting alone won't stop it.It will still be a me too dog.
jmo

i know some dog's are deal loaner's but i see where you said loner's arent man made, but i know some guy's who make them loaner's by shocking a dog if it back's another dog. alot of pkc hunter's do this, where did the indepence come from 30 year's ago you never herd of that ? I hunt mine by there self most of the time and they don't care what another dog is doing won't back another dog never shocked them for backing a dog,if i hunt my 2 together they back each other just figure i can't figure that out

Posted by jculler8 on 10-11-2013 04:41 AM:

I agree with many of the above where an old dog gets a young dog started or deeper, however, I think for those young pups that are struggling, you've gotta hunt them with a cur or old as in 10+ year old dog that is slower... Sometimes it does wonders for a young dog to take a track an old dog starts and put the coon up ahead of the old dog.

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Posted by tykar on 10-11-2013 05:05 AM:

finished dog stunt the growth of well started dogs

i believe too many tree dog s not coon dogs are made following old dogs around too much i start my pups alone when i believe they know wat they are hunting then i put them with the teacher to get them to find a track but only for a few nights then they are hunted alone till i believe they put a few good nights in a row. After that i like to finish them with pot licking dogs that way my pup gains confidence in her abilities.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-11-2013 05:27 AM:

Can the old dog "teach" them....NO

Can they learn from the old dog...YES....

There is ONLY one way for a dog to learn to do anything....and that is repetition. It matters not what it is, if the dog only does it one time, it hasn't "learned" anything. Through risk and reward, it will either repeat an action, or it will decide that it is not worth the pain/discomfort or lack of reward...and it will not repeat that action.

So, if you are hunting a pup with an old dog, and that dog goes hunting the way you like for a dog to hunt, and the old dogs actions get the pup to become "involved" in tracking....and treeing, and the pup enjoys doing those things, and gets rewarded for those actions...in effect it is learning to repeat the old dogs actions....

An old dog can't make a better track dog, or a better tree dog out of a pup......but the pup will learn to repeat the actions,when properly rewarded for those actions.

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