UKC Forums - suggestion to UKC on juding major shows.

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-- suggestion to UKC on juding major shows. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928336342)

Posted by cripple creek on 09-03-2013 05:29 AM:

suggestion to UKC on juding major shows.

I think it is time to go to a three judge judgement when judging at the major shows. getting one persons opionion is not the correct way to handle this any longer. It is time to move to the next phase of progression.
There is absolutely no way to stop partisan choosing on the part of any judge judging by themselves.
folks are spending hundreds if not nearly a thousandollars and travel many hundred miles and get hotels and eat and then have the judging come down to one persons opinion.
We have progressed and so has UKC in many areas. This can be done swiftly, easily and with little effort on UKC's part.
Lets please see about moving in this direction.

We choose biases in everyday life, when we go to break at work, we gravitate and sit by friends or like minded people. Its just human nature. We have gotten away from judging based on the breed standards.

a points sheet could be handed out to the three judges, marked tallied in a matter of seconds and point out the winner and move to the next group in that class at the larger shows. I am sure an extra 5 minutes would not make a difference overall to the participants who have spent all that time and money getting there and feeling the outcome went down to one persons opinion on whether a dog moved at the last few seconds just as the judge turned that way. I have seen it decided that way and that is not what the rules require.

Just want to move our sport forward instead of standing still. Other registries are doing it and it sure seem to go over with the crowd who were juding themselves on the sidelines. And the outcome seemed more accurate to me and I have been showing dogs for over thirty years.

I am not responding because I lost recently. I have just seen some dogs lose recently that were far superiour hounds by confirmation standards for their breed than what was picked as the eventual champion.

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Posted by Nat Thomas on 09-03-2013 11:24 AM:

"I am not responding because I lost recently. I have just seen some dogs lose recently that were far superiour hounds by confirmation standards for their breed than what was picked as the eventual champion."

Sounds like just as much of an opinion as you are complaining about... Never showed a dog in my life... Don't really see the point... But until you remove the human factor, judging will never be objective and unbiased and I don't see robot judges in the near future.

Judges are announced before hand... If you know the judge prefers a certain type of hound then don't go and waste the hundreds of dollars and miles... It would be interesting to see the results of the exact same hounds at the exact same time judged by 1 person and a 3 person panel... I would bet money that the results won't be that different...

Or maybe.... If your opinion is far superior to the judges that you have seen recently, you should step up to the plate and be the judge.

Posted by dperry on 09-03-2013 02:51 PM:

Sounds good on paper. Until they pick 3 different dogs.

Posted by Cynthia on 09-03-2013 03:53 PM:

I thought this year's panel of judges was the best in a long while. (not saying that because I won!) but overall each knew what they liked, studied on it, and picked what they thought were the best dogs presented. did I like all the choices that were made? No, there were some that I, too, question. However, OVERALL, compared to previous years, from what "I SAW" there seemed to be less bias and handler picking as in year's past. even talking with them afterwards and asking opinions on what they thought about my dog this or that, the judge saw exactly what I know is wrong with my dog and that was why they didnt get picked. no hard feelings. again...jmo

congrats to those that did win. yes its a lot of $$, time, miles etc. but with prior knowledge of judges, at least you have some idea what they are looking for.

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Posted by Cleo on 09-03-2013 04:01 PM:

What show? Which hounds?

Not trying to start anything just would like to see if some of the judges on this board agree with you.

I loose almost everytime I show. I only had 1 instance that I can remember when I was told by almost every spectator I should have won. Some of those ppl werent friends or even walker ppl.

I agree (and have said it several times ) I think Ukc should come up with rules regulating how the State Champ Shows ~ Purina Pt events ~ should be run. But as for the judging, I honestly think it is done pretty well. Im not a judge. Dont want to be one. Too much drama. I just contribute to the cause. ;-)

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Posted by Wmagicwebb on 09-03-2013 05:16 PM:

get away from the buddy system ,almost everyone knows whate goes on
not just at the big shows either ;look at some of the dogs that make ch. or gr ch. and u wonder

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Posted by cripple creek on 09-03-2013 07:08 PM:

Just making a sound opinion on

trying to improve our sport. No ax to grind.
I have been showing dogs for over 30 years and probably won over 90% of all the shows I have entered. And thats a bunch. I just want to see us strive to continue to take the one person opinion out of the equation. This is not the Eukanuba New York City show here.

I have experienced a couple of the following personally so I know from whence I speak....
1. Got beat at a local show with a dog that never lost a show except that one with competetion in three different states. It went to a friend and hunting partner of the judge as I found out later and every man standing around shook their head and men who owned different breeds of dogs came up to me afterwards and told me the whole story. I am past getting upset any more, but that one did sting a little.
2. Got beat at a State level show with a world champion by a dog that took 200 points before they made show champion with a best of show. The winner came up to me afterwards and actually apologized for winning. They Knew the truth. This person is a personal friend of mine and I think the world of them for their encouragement.
3. a couple of years later same judge at a state show and after winning a world title got beat by a dog that I had beaten before and of course this winner happened to be a member of the club with the judge. If I had beaten the same dog early with the same judge because of confirmation, what happened to my dog in confirmation from one year to the next that would cause me to get beat by that other dog. Our dogs were close to the same age and in their prime. ??? You cant explain that one.
Another member of that club came up to me after the show and told me of a conversation that took place with the winner and some of his friends a week earlier at a hunt at their local club with the judge sitting near by and listening. HIs friends were kidding him and saying you know there is no reason to go up there because you know who you will be showing against and how good she is. You have no chance. The guy said well I am going anyway. (good for him, I would have too) I actually showed and won best Male of show at the state show with another dog and he was heads and tails better than the winner and again got beaten.

Now with that all said. I have been beaten by some very good dogs in my lifetime...Little Walnut Tammy, Rowes Hill top Tammy and Diamond Ridge queen of hearts. Those are and were worthy world champions. I wasnt in their league and knew it.
I dont mind getting beaten by a dog that is superior in confirmation. that makes me go back to the drawing board as a breeder and commit my self to breed an even better dog to compete on the level with those hounds.

I am not trying to blast any judges, but there are conversations going on behind the scenes and at these shows that there are some trends showing up that is just not acceptable to me as a member of our sport. My money spends just like everyone elses and I have a voice. If it differs with yours and yours with mine, thats ok but dont try and get personal and snotty about it.

this is how we grow by having differing opinions and discussing them in open forums so we can learn from our mistakes and improve.

Thats my only reason for opening this discussion. Not to bash judges because me or my buddy didnt win, its to try our best to take out the opportunity for bias to enter a major show. It is going to happen at the local level because the lack of participation and qualified judges, but if another registry can do it, so can UKC.

Posted by Laura Bell on 09-04-2013 05:11 PM:

And then when someone gets beat by the 3 Judge Panel, they'll want a 5 Judge Panel....

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Posted by dperry on 09-04-2013 05:51 PM:

Re: Just making a sound opinion on

quote:
Originally posted by cripple creek
trying to improve our sport. No ax to grind.
I have been showing dogs for over 30 years and probably won over 90% of all the shows I have entered.

now that is doing some winning. I doubt there is another entity in any kind of sport over a 30 year spread that could match that. maybe the Yankees?

Posted by Cleo on 09-04-2013 06:47 PM:

Posted by StackemupTWC on 09-04-2013 06:54 PM:

Education

I would rather see national level judging done by those that have taken the time to attend Mr. Cavanaugh's education seminars held throughout the year.

He covers structure and how it pertains to the different breeds and the job they do. He also discusses the history of each breed and group.

Posted by Bigridge kennel on 09-04-2013 10:32 PM:

I will x10000 on the 3 judge thing because my judge road with a boy in my cast and needless to say he got first strike / tree everywhere.

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Posted by robert whitten on 09-04-2013 11:27 PM:

YA'LL ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BENCH RIGHT ?

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Posted by Dale Young on 09-04-2013 11:54 PM:

Requirements and
Procedures for Becoming a
UKC� Licensed Show Judge
*Revised January 1, 2011
Persons interested in becoming UKC Licensed
Bench Show Judges should: 1) complete the application
and test which may be obtained at their local
club or UKC; 2) Application and test is then returned
by applicant to UKC, along with Application Fee. If
applicant passes application and test, they will then
be sent three apprentice forms.
1. The applicants must be known for their honesty,
integrity, impartiality and their interest in the improvement
of the coonhound breeds. The Judge�s personal
appearance and habits should be above reproach
and befitting a UKC licensed Bench Show Judge

If a judge is chosen that meets this standard there should not be a problem .
If you go with 3 judges and just one of them don't measure up you have the same problem you had with only one .

Usually the problem is expecting the judge to see everything the same way we do and than being upset when they don't .

Posted by Cleo on 09-05-2013 01:00 AM:

Ppl standing on the sidelines cant see what a judge sees in all the dogs. Maybe the dog that won had a fault you see, but in comparison to the other dogs the dog choosen maybe the best there is that day. I am not trying to bash you and I respect you for your comments. My point is the judging for Ukc is just not that bad. I have not won 90% of shows I am in. By far! I enjoy showing the larger shows. I show local as well, but even then, dont see the judging in a neg way.

I guess Im just sick of hearing that the judges are so bad. If there is a judge you dont care for, just stay home. I had an issue with a State show in the past
I called and complained and I wont be back. There WAS a panel of judges there too, for the final overall.

I dont mean to be ugly. I simply get tired of the judge bashing. Hope you can respect my comments as I have yours.

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 10-08-2013 02:26 PM:

i hope i word this right where i dont hurt no ones feeling not trying to.i like to see 3 judges but not for the same reason as
other have posted.here my question when is last time a judge
has picked a dog for over all outside the ring they judged at a.o.?

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 10-08-2013 03:19 PM:

i dont see where it would slow anything dwn to bring in a fresh judge in just like the world or cost anymore with 3 judges there.

Posted by Penny Jessup on 10-09-2013 04:22 AM:

3 judge panels have their good points I suppose, but in my limited experience with them.....they can also:

* Triple the expense of putting on a major show....that's a hard sell if you consider for 3 quality judges who will all expect compensation...both with UKC at their major events and with the individual state associations for state shows. If you just use 3 club members who happen to already be there that day...well, I think you might just be back where your argument started....

* Make the show run long on time....everyone wants to look at the dog, put hands on etc. Then, there is the score card writing and tallying (not counting ties) Sure it might seems like an extra 5 minutes and not too bad...until you add up 5 min for about every class and for shows like AO....with all the puppy, junior and senior classes in all breeds male and female...it wouldn't take long to accumulate to an additional hour if not more....

* Allow a dishonest judge to place a good dog out of winning by giving it a very low placement or not picking it....and because you don't know who picked what dog...that judge doesn't have to justify his picks or answer why he made such placement ( he can always lie later and say he picked your world champion dog...he can't understand why you didn't win)

I wish 3 judge panels would stop all the partisan problems you describe, but the 3 judge panel is itself not without flaws too.

I don't think it is the ultimate answer....just my opinion

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 10-09-2013 04:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Penny Jessup
3 judge panels have their good points I suppose, but in my limited experience with them.....they can also:

* Triple the expense of putting on a major show....that's a hard sell if you consider for 3 quality judges who will all expect compensation...both with UKC at their major events and with the individual state associations for state shows. If you just use 3 club members who happen to already be there that day...well, I think you might just be back where your argument started....

* Make the show run long on time....everyone wants to look at the dog, put hands on etc. Then, there is the score card writing and tallying (not counting ties) Sure it might seems like an extra 5 minutes and not too bad...until you add up 5 min for about every class and for shows like AO....with all the puppy, junior and senior classes in all breeds male and female...it wouldn't take long to accumulate to an additional hour if not more....

* Allow a dishonest judge to place a good dog out of winning by giving it a very low placement or not picking it....and because you don't know who picked what dog...that judge doesn't have to justify his picks or answer why he made such placement ( he can always lie later and say he picked your world champion dog...he can't understand why you didn't win)

I wish 3 judge panels would stop all the partisan problems you describe, but the 3 judge panel is itself not without flaws too.

I don't think it is the ultimate answer....just my opinion

but if you use 3 judges there at a.o wouldnt it make the 2 in the ring more competive to pick the best dog for the 3rd judge to look at?no more expense no more time.you would have to win under 2 differnt judges.

Posted by LadonnaWilliams on 10-09-2013 05:07 AM:

3 judge panel will not solve this. I totally like the way Purina Nationals
is run. You know who the 3 judges are but not who you get until they draw. As Penny said it will take alot more time. Just my OP. I do think this years World Show was One of the Best ive been to.

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Posted by Ky Show Girl on 10-09-2013 05:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by LadonnaWilliams
3 judge panel will not solve this. I totally like the way Purina Nationals
is run. You know who the 3 judges are but not who you get until they draw. As Penny said it will take alot more time. Just my OP. I do think this years World Show was One of the Best ive been to.

i want be at purina national this yr.how do you have a tie
and not run it off some how?

Posted by Cynthia on 10-09-2013 04:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ky Show Girl
i want be at purina national this yr.how do you have a tie
and not run it off some how?

only 1 judge per breed. they put the 3 judges name in hat and pull one out for B&T, andother out for ALH, and the third gets Bluetick. they stay in that order for the rest of the breeds.
j1 - B&T, Eng, TW
j2 - ALH, Plott
j3 - bluetick, redbone

then if i remember correctly, all three judge the final and make their own picks and UKC tallies

Posted by JSTARR on 10-09-2013 07:21 PM:

btt

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-10-2013 11:23 AM:

I spent my high school career in FFA, on the school livestock judging team....and we had to "pick the best animal" and then justify our choices by giving the REASON that animal A placed above animal B.

Now I don't show dogs, but I do judge a fair amount of bench shows. I know that it is common for a UKC Bench show judge to simply pick a winner, and not offer one sentence that would justify that choice.

I think it is high time that judges step up to the microphone and explain to all of the "other judges" (those that are spectating) why they made the decision that they made. Now that doesn't mean that those decisions will always be "right"....but at least we would know what in the world was going on in their heads!

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Posted by H. L. Meyer on 10-10-2013 02:00 PM:

Oak Ridge

You can tell what is going on in their head by the way they choose a winner. NOW you can judge them and tell if you want to show in front of them again or not. See the world is full of choices. If the Judge does not suit your way of thinking then DON'T show under them again. At least that is my choice anyway.

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