UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Rule Question (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928323145)

Rule Question

Here is my question in three different scenarios:
Scenario 1- 4 dog cast. hunting judge. dog A trees off to itself. Cast goes to score tree. As judge arrives he sees dog treeing on two trees that are connected at the base, mostly treeing on the right hand tree, but circling them while treeing. The judge says that both trees will be scored as one. A raccoon is found in tree on left. All cast members see it. Judge and another cast member say plus the tree.Two cast members vote to circle as they feel as though the two trees should not be treated as one, and the dog was showing the tree in which no coon could be found. Judge says, it is my call about which tree or trees the dog was showing, so I am going to plus it as all four cast members have seen coon. Judges says that it takes a majority of cast to overturn his decision about whether the dog was satisfactorily showing tree. Question is put on card. How should MOH rule?
Scenario 2. Same as above, except dog is clearly showing one tree. Before shine time starts judge can see in moonlight a limb that appears to cross out. He shines quickly, before shine time and declares that in fact he has determined that the limb is a legit cross out, and two trees are eligible for scoring. Coon is found in tree cross out limb leads to. Judge and another cast member want tree plussed. Two cast members say that despite seeing the coon that tree can't be plussed because they don't think limb is legit cross out. Judge says that that is his decision, he has made it and that he will plus tree as all have seen the coon, and it would take a majority to overturn his decision of what can be scored, once he has made that decision. And note that in scenario 1 and 2 that no one questioned his decision of what to score until after coon was found. How should MOH rule?
Scenario 3
Same as 1 and 2 in that one dog is treed by itself. Cast starts to score tree. Coon is found one tree over. Judge says that crossout is legit, all have seen coon and judge wants tree scored. 2 to 2 vote about crosscut. Judge says that he is going to plus it as it is his decision about which tree to score. 2 cast members object and vote to circle. How should MOH rule?

My view is that scenario one gets plussed, three gets circled, but not sure of scenario two.

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

And along same lines- dog treed by itself. walking in Judges is satisfied with dog showing treed. Two cast members say dog was too loose on tree- came too far off. Judge says it is his decision and it takes a majority to overturn it. Two say dog treed satisfactorily, two say not. Coon is seen by all. ? is put on card. How should MOH rule.

This I would think has to be plussed also.

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Scenario 1 it should be plussed in my opinion.
Scenario 2 that's a tough one but it would have to be circle but the moh will go with the judge.
Scenario 3 should be circled because 2 to 2 vote.

Sounds to me the guy that is the judge shouldn't be one anymore

__________________
Proud supporters of coal!
Coal keeps the lights on!!!

**Home Of**

PR Money's Little Rain
Nitech PR The Midnight Joker


Jordan Maynard
304-385-4266 --Home
304-784-2091 --Cell

Richard Maynard
304-272-3338 --Home
304-784-7551 --Cell

**Call us anytime if you have a question**

**RIP**
Grnitech Grch PR High Spirit Dan
~7-8-1999 to 10-6-2012~
PR Stylish Ruby[color=blue](Died with 2 UKC first)
PR WV'S High Power Aka FEFE (2008 WV State Champion)
(Died with 2 UKC first)
PR MY Fightin Side(Died with a UKC 1st and 2nd)
~8-20-2007 to 12-7-2012~
Grnitech Grch PR Maynard's Nocturnal Nicki
10-1-2003 to 6-22-15

1 & 2 - They can't wait until after the coon is found to decide they are going to question the call. Too late.

3 - Circled (I think).

4 - I believe the dog only has to satisfy the judge , not the cast.

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

I side with the judge in all but scenario 3. that one should be a circle if he didnt decide to include another tree until after the coon was found. But the card does say that the scoring of trees is always a voteing situation.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

If the trees are connected at the base then how are you not going to score them as one tree? I have seen dogs tree in the split up on one tree and lean their head back showing the other tree. Back to your scenarios...All three should be plussed but scenerio three would be circled because two were petty and voted to circle....the judge made a decision and no majority to over rule him. To follow the proper voting procedure the judges decision to score a cross out point or as one tree would have to be questioned and then voted on and if a majority did not overturn the judges decision then the tree would be voted on based on the judges call. So basically you would have to have two votes. One vote after the judges call is questioned. The second on scoring the tree. If the judges call is not overturned then the trees would be scored as one and voted on if they saw the coon. Nothing hard to understand.

Scenario one....judges call is not questioned so trees would be scored as one.
Scenario two....judges call is not questioned so cross out point is scored legit.
Scenario three....judges call is questioned but no majority to overturn so it os scored as a legit cross out.

All three trees plussed and as a MOH's I am going by the rules and with the judges call.

__________________
"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

Sometimes you don't see a cross out point until you start shining but when the judge makes a call it needs to be questioned then and not after the tree has been scored or the coon has been seen by a majority of the cast. With that being said, if the call was not questioned at the time the judge made the call then to bad....you waited to long. Once the judge asked for a score vote on the tree then sorry. In scenario three if two vote to circle because they didn't overturn the judge then they are not sportsman and are not following the rules. The tree would be scored circle.

__________________
"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

the words connected at base is the key... always plus if coon is seen by majority which ever side of the tree the dog showed... 3 would be circled

I was pleasure hunting the other night when this scenario happened to me. Just two dogs out, not four, but I was trying to honestly assess the two dogs and score them accurately. I had a tree in which one of the dogs was one tree over from two coon. As a pleasure hunter/hide hunter I was satisfied, and as a comp hunter I was because the two trees did connect. BUT, as a trainer I was not, cause there was no way those coon crossed. This put me in a situation where I had to plus the dog that made a mistake.
Which is what got me wondering about these scenarios. I think this is a tough ? because we know it takes a "majority of the cast to plus or minus". But I think it is a judges call as to what gets scored right up until the 10 minute shine time begins. Then it is a casts decision.
If there is a UKC official reading this will you weigh in on the question?

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

To me, everyone would be circled. Deciding a tree is a cast decision, if the vote is two to two, you got a circle tree, if the coon is seen or not. Tom

__________________
Home of:
NTCH Honky Tonk Joe
GRNTCH The Duke
Dual GRNTCH Wendy
GRNTCH Cola
GrNtCH Honky Tonk Rock and Roll
Dual GRCH Bumper
Dual CH June
Dual CH Jill

quote:

---

Originally posted by pigsit
To me, everyone would be circled. Deciding a tree is a cast decision, if the vote is two to two, you got a circle tree, if the coon is seen or not. Tom

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by patches9452
not when it is a tree that is connected at the bottom to each other... moh should over rule a circle if cast says in fact tree was connected at the bottom... coon could very easily go up the trunk dog was treed on and step over to other trunk on the way up.... anytime a tree is connected it should not matter what we think score according to the rules

---

__________________
Home of:
NTCH Honky Tonk Joe
GRNTCH The Duke
Dual GRNTCH Wendy
GRNTCH Cola
GrNtCH Honky Tonk Rock and Roll
Dual GRCH Bumper
Dual CH June
Dual CH Jill

quote:

---

Originally posted by pigsit
It is scored according to the rules, two/two vote, circle, but you can question it. Tom

---

__________________
"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

I agree with nccoonhunter.

You cant just vote to circle because you dissagree judge on HOW the tree should be scored....There are 2 different matters at play, they need to be delt with seperately.

__________________
Bad decisions make good stories.

quote:

---

Originally posted by john Duemmer
I side with the judge in all but scenario 3. that one should be a circle if he didnt decide to include another tree until after the coon was found. But the card does say that the scoring of trees is always a voteing situation.

---

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

If it is the same dog every time seems to me he is wearin it out.

quote:

---

Originally posted by joey
He only has to decide if two trees will be scored as one prior to shine time if another dog is split. The only trick to any of these questions is when they were questioned. They were questioned in case 1 and 2 after the coon was found. In the case of number 2 he should of never put a light in the tree before the shine time because there was not a dog split on the next tree. They should of questioned it before the shine time was started. So they do not have a leg to stand on. In the 3rd case they can question the cross out because they are doing it at the time the call is being made.

---

__________________
patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it deserves it.
if you think the price of education is high, check out the cost of ignorance!

Could you imagine the mess if every tree was shined to see if it touches another one before shine time started? Almost all of them touch another tree somewhere.

I understand what you are saying but if there is not another dog treed on the next tree there is no reason to see if it is touching another one. If you are shining and find a coon in the next tree and a limb can be crossed then it is fine to score it.

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

I think whenever possible the judge should announce to the cast at the beginning of shine time which trees are to be scored. Close is only supposed to count in horseshoes and hand grenades.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside